Author Topic: World of Warcraft Classic  (Read 2750 times)

Marco

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Re: World of Warcraft Classic
« Reply #60 on: August 26, 2019, 07:36:39 AM »
It will be interesting to see how far they take that. The add-on API being relatively more modern vs 1.12 means there will be less of the add-ons that existed back then that simplified gameplay (although 1.12 is post-Decursive, etc) but there's plenty of newer things that would have been unimaginable back then.
I thought Decursive etc. only went away in 2.0.

Per this post Blizzard has disabled most of the additional features of the modern addon API, while preserving the restrictions.  I think some of the terrible parts of the 1.12 API like only getting partial combat log information (so you had to merge logs with those of other players) are fixed.

Piralyn

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Re: World of Warcraft Classic
« Reply #61 on: August 26, 2019, 07:45:37 AM »
I thought they killed Decursive at SOME point in 1.X, because I vaguely remember being annoyed by ZG/AQ stuff without it suddenly. Being like a decade and a half ago, though, it's plausible I'm remembering wrong.

Piralyn

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Re: World of Warcraft Classic
« Reply #62 on: August 26, 2019, 07:47:43 AM »
Actually spending 30 seconds Googling appears that it did indeed break with 2.0, which was a couple of months prior to BC. That explains why I remember missing it in ZG/AQ but it still worked in 1.12.

Marco

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Re: World of Warcraft Classic
« Reply #63 on: August 26, 2019, 10:36:51 PM »
An interview with Ion about classic layering, queues, and server populations:

https://www.forbes.com/sites/hnewman/2019/08/26/warcraft-classic-layering-and-realm-queues-ion-hazzikostas-explains-why-youre-waiting-to-log-in/#6c748a317e45

This is kind of a fascinating engineering problem.  There have been very few re-launches of old versions of MMOs (I think Runescape may have done it).  Trying to predict the falloff from name reservations to launch-day player demand to long-term realm populations is very difficult.  If they miss the mark one way, they can open up new realms and perhaps offer free transfers off, which is sort of but not amazingly effective.  If they miss the mark the other way, they can do server merges, which are highly disruptive (I assume they don't want to do "connected realms" since those weren't in classic).

Twitch streams for WoW (classic and live, but probably mostly classic) reached a combined peak of at least 1.2 million viewers during launch.  As I type this, it's at 409K viewers, over five times as many as the second-most popular game.  Pretty wild.

The launch predictably had some technical and capacity problems.  I was watching Taliesin's stream; he was playing on the EU RP-PvP server, which probably had lower demand than most servers.  He and Evitel were able to log in, but layering didn't work perfectly for groups (people had to relog to be in the same layer), there was significant lag, and of course trying to tag mobs for the starting Forsaken quest was miserable.  Blizzard reported they were working on fixing "world server down" issues some players saw; I saw other reports of people stuck in absurdly long queues.

Snique

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Re: World of Warcraft Classic
« Reply #64 on: August 27, 2019, 05:51:09 AM »
I am honestly baffled by the whole classic thing. It's easy to remember and relate all the bad things (I played a freaking paladin, fercrissake, the only class so boring that Blizzard gave them a suicide button. And the five minute buffs and the piles of consumables for them and on and on).

What did I like in classic? I played with some cool people. Some of them I still play with in live, but most long ago moved on to other things. I don't think more than a tiny fraction will be back for classic.

Also, there was some fun content. Six hour forty-person Molten Core runs were not fun, except see above about the people. (Like, Snique and Cogi competing to see who could pull mobs in MC because our raid had no hunters, or did but hunter pets were buggy AF.)

But that's about it. Leveling was miserable, class balance was to laugh, loot was basically a source of misery, and basically all the lessons we've learned over the last decade about what makes playing an MMO better go out the window. So what gives? Is it just nostalgia? People with serious rose-colored glasses syndrome?

Yharon

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Re: World of Warcraft Classic
« Reply #65 on: August 27, 2019, 06:19:16 AM »
Is it just nostalgia? People with serious rose-colored glasses syndrome?

To an extent, yes.  But there are also several things that have gone very wrong with the retail game over the years.  To a large extent it has devolved into a lobby for mini-games; there's no feeling of a coherent living social world like there is in classic. 

When was the last time you ran into a random in retail and had a meaningful interaction, for example? Made a friend that you continued to do other content with out in the world?  I'm personally not a huge fan of the class balance in classic (I liked BC class balance the most) but I'll take it over the blandness that is retail.
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Marco

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Re: World of Warcraft Classic
« Reply #66 on: August 27, 2019, 07:03:28 AM »
Perhaps.  I think community is still there on retail if you look for it.  And I think a lot of people will find that classic won't give them today what it gave them fourteen years ago, and will leave pretty quickly.

Regardless, when developers offered a realm type with no CRZ, no LFD, no LFR, and no character transfers, but modern content, players were very clear that that wasn't what they wanted.  They wanted old content and graphics, bad class balance, crazy itemization, hordes of murlocs clipping through boats, etc..  (To be fair, some aspects of the modern game, like flying, can't be reversed through realm rules.)

Kharvek

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Re: World of Warcraft Classic
« Reply #67 on: August 27, 2019, 09:50:12 AM »
I am also in the baffled camp.  The argument I get the most is the social aspect and that questing was harder and more challenging and it forced you to group up and the methods to meet people meant you actually talked to them.  Again, I think there's a lot of rose colored glasses there since there's a lot of things that exist now that didn't then, and there will be things that happen in "modern" classic that wouldn't in classic classic.

IE: Right now when a new dungeon comes out, you have about 2 days to learn it before you're expected to know everything when you enter a random.  Back then?  That wasn't the case.  Resources like wowhead were in their infancy and the amount of information being shared online was nowhere what it used to be.  You didn't have plucky Brits making clear and coherent fight videos for raids before they were released, instead people held onto that information to keep an edge.  But now we all do have that knowledge, the expectations will be there.  Now most the people I know diving back into classic are going in with groups of friends who played so they don't need to meet people there and it will fix some of the issues I had which was...I often ended up playing solo since I honestly had a hell of a time finding people I wanted to play with and honestly a lot of the time I wanted to quest solo.  The old game was not kind to playing solo and I honestly did not have the experience many of you did with meeting people through playing the game.  That wasn't my experience at all. 

We all know class balance was a mess back then, but data collection and processing tools have gotten so sophisticated now I'm curious to how bad it's going to be revealed it was.  WoW classic had a ton of issues, but a lot of them we were less aware of since we just didn't know any better.  It was the first time a lot of us played a game of this nature and we were in a completely different headspace for it.  We aren't now.  The genie is out of the bottle and we have that knowledge.  We know that when we look at that talent tree that represented a sea of choices back then, in reality is...."There are maybe three or build "right" builds depending on what you want to do, and any other exploration and experimentation will result in a disaster of a character"  You can go back to how the game used to be but you can't go back to what your knowledge was back then, or what the community knowledge was back then.  MMO's were brand spankin new, everything was a mystery to be uncovered.  WoW was likely the first time many players ever raided, outside of maybe the old hardcore EQ crowd.  Almost EVERYONE was doing everything for the first time.  That's not the case anymore.

The game back then hardcore didn't respect my time either.  Sure I felt more accomplished to hit max level back then since it took so goddamn long, but I was also in college, briefly between jobs and in my 20's where I had more energy to work 10 hours a day and dump a bunch of time into the game.  That isn't my life anymore.  I don't have time to play a game that gives you this tiniest of trickle of reward for the time I put in.  Levelling takes forever, rep grinds were absurd, and if you wanted to do anything fun you had to invest even more time to maybe get the proper resist gear to enable you to do the thing you wanted....and before that you needed to do the quest chain to do it, which all require all manner of things to do that require time, groups of people of varying sizes and more.  I have a hard enough time investing the time in WoW solo content in the modern game, I can't imagine going back to how it used to be.  I don't want to quest for 2 hours and look down and see "Oh, I made it halfway to level 25"  I don't miss trying to discern where to go on the map from quest descriptions at all.  I don't miss any of that.  If I want rewarding exploration/detective gameplay?  I'll play a different game.  There are games I want to play to be challenged by myself and WoW is definitely not one of them.

The game is better now.  BFA has made a ton of mistakes, but it is a better game.  Legion is the single best expansion WoW has ever seen.  It dethroned Wrath for me.  They've made plenty of dumb choices, but the net gain is better and many of the problems with modern WoW are less to do with the game, and more to do with an evolved and veteran playerbase.  We are all 15 year veterans of MMOs.  The loot system changes and flexible raiding have been absolute godsends.  I think back to the days of complicated rostering spreadsheets and complicate loot systems and all the drama that happens when you have 40 people fighting over 2 drops from a boss?  And who gets to do the day you know you'll kill the thing that has the stuff you want?  I don't miss that, I don't miss that at all.  Now I can show up Tuesday, whip up a group and if some people can and can't go, it isn't a huge problem.  The days of scrambling for backups and stressing out "Are we going to field a raid today" are gone because of changes Blizzard has made.  The amount of stress the game incurs is at an all time low and I love showing up Tuesdays and Thursdays with people I like hanging out with and solving various raid puzzles and talking about butts and dicks.

I don't miss MC.  I don't miss 10 man dungeons.  I don't miss questing and the lack of tools.  ....but hey, I'm happy for all you folks that do.  ....I just don't get you all.  I also heavily, heavily disagree with anyone who says the game was objectively better back then.  It wasn't.  It is objectively better now, and like I said above, I think a huge issue is that the knowledge we have about MMO's now is vastly different than what it was back then.  We can rewind the game to back then, but we can't rewind ourselves and the community.

My instinct is after the initial swarm dies out, there will be a group of hardcore players who stay into it.  There's obvious interest in this thing otherwise illicit classic servers wouldn't exist or people wouldn't legit be raiding in original Everquest, but I think that playerbase will be nowhere near as huge as the current flood of people playing.  I think people will get in, get a strong nostalgia injection, and then once that wears off start seeing all the warts you don't think about when you think fondly on the past.

Tweed

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Re: World of Warcraft Classic
« Reply #68 on: August 27, 2019, 10:16:02 AM »
I wish I could fav Kharv's post like we do on Twitter. It perfectly sums up the situation.

ghoselle

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Re: World of Warcraft Classic
« Reply #69 on: August 27, 2019, 10:33:22 AM »
I pretty much entirely agree with Kharvek.

It'll sound weird, but the only things I miss from there is the old talent point system and feral&guardian being one spec.  I liked having more options -- and I'll fully admit this may be because purely because I was a bearcat who played with slightly less "optimal" builds that were interesting and let me have extra utility from other tanks.  And even then, if I could, I'd make that old system more meaningful.  To many of the choices were minor or filler but I think they could do a talent point system that was meaningful and interesting with they've learned.

But I miss the option of taking a tactically chosen less perfectly tank optimized spec to set me up to do much better dps, which let them do things like design tank encounters requiring various numbers of tanks (these days every fight requires a tank swap; and you have to always have exactly 2 tanks). 

And to be honest, I have little nostalgia for Classic -- I do have some solid nostalgia for Burning Crusade as it was such a better game than classic.  I loved Karazhan, Gruul, SSC and Black Temple.  (Even with Black Temple's anti-bear last boss mechanic.)  Gruul is where I proved bears could be tanks.  The max level dungeon in Hellfire was where I really realized I could be a good tank, after running it a lot with not good tanks and going and doing it with finesse.   

Black Temple had the council boss where I theory-crafted out a gear set and talent build just for that boss that made me unhittable*.  And that sort of "do non-standard stuff and be extra successful" is missing from the current model where everything is balanced so tanks are mostly equal and all the info you need i published in guides.  (* - pretty sure this is part of why stats are now on diminishing returns so you can no longer get 100%.)

And Bear theory-craft had a really active and cool community, and that has all died off because its just not relevant any more.  And I don't think Classic can bring that back.


Fallowgrey

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Re: World of Warcraft Classic
« Reply #70 on: August 27, 2019, 10:43:44 AM »
Um, I just want to see the pre-Cataclysm quest lore on the Horde side that I missed out on.  And I'm willing to deal with stupid old systems and finding people to do it.  That is all.
Alliance: Fallowgrey L120 Dwarf Priest / Evring, Nelf Druid / Arkibal, Human Paladin / Gayelette, Dwarf Shaman / Haikeebah, Pandaren Monk / Zelbinion, Worgen Warrior
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Piralyn

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Re: World of Warcraft Classic
« Reply #71 on: August 27, 2019, 12:24:53 PM »
I think back to the days of complicated rostering spreadsheets and complicate loot systems and all the drama that happens when you have 40 people fighting over 2 drops from a boss?  And who gets to do the day you know you'll kill the thing that has the stuff you want?  I don't miss that, I don't miss that at all.  Now I can show up Tuesday, whip up a group and if some people can and can't go, it isn't a huge problem.

You don't miss me haranguing Draeven about covering all the buffs in rostering so we could have even a slim shot at beating bosses in heroic Trial of the Crusader?

Piralyn

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Re: World of Warcraft Classic
« Reply #72 on: August 27, 2019, 12:40:23 PM »
I don't have time to play a game that gives you this tiniest of trickle of reward for the time I put in.  Levelling takes forever, rep grinds were absurd, and if you wanted to do anything fun you had to invest even more time to maybe get the proper resist gear to enable you to do the thing you wanted....and before that you needed to do the quest chain to do it, which all require all manner of things to do that require time, groups of people of varying sizes and more.  I have a hard enough time investing the time in WoW solo content in the modern game, I can't imagine going back to how it used to be.  I don't want to quest for 2 hours and look down and see "Oh, I made it halfway to level 25"  I don't miss trying to discern where to go on the map from quest descriptions at all.  I don't miss any of that.  If I want rewarding exploration/detective gameplay?  I'll play a different game.  There are games I want to play to be challenged by myself and WoW is definitely not one of them.

To an extent, the trickle of rewards is the primary thing I do understand. One of the big complaints about modern WoW is that leveling/etc doesn't really seem to give you anything. The talent point system and spell ranks and the like may be very minor rewards for a level, but they're still some kind of tangible reward. In modern WoW, things tend to get harder with each level you get up to max level rather than easier.

In modern WoW, I feel like I get fifty pieces of gear a week, none of which really matter and are promptly vendored/scrapped/whatever. In Classic WoW, most of the loot--once you got past the green of the Whale type stuff--felt like it mattered. Being one of the first Druids on the server with 8-piece Tier 1 felt amazing because it was "hard work" and a bit of a status symbol. Now I get multiple 430+ items a week and none of them really impact anything.

The amount of effort to get those rewards now vs then is vastly different, but I can understand the allure of being able to get some kind of reward at each step, even if it is basically infinitesimal.

Modern WoW feels much more like a social co-op game than an MMO/RPG. I'd argue it has more in common with a game like CS:GO or Overwatch or the like than an MMO like Classic WoW. That's not necessarily a bad thing, but there are undoubtedly some people who would prefer a trickle of meaingful rewards and linear progression to the waterfall of purples that are all mostly indistinguishable from one another type of game.

If the dev team takes some lessons about meaningful rewards and progression from Classic, great. I don't long for grinding/pickpocketing ogres in the Alterac Mountains for 40 hours for the gold to buy a horse, but it would be nice to maybe have the journey from 120 to 130 or whatever just feel like mindlessly filling ten bars with no rewards/changes for each one just to spend the next 18 months putting tiny shards and rocks into a neck for AP to get +5 mastery/crit/haste and +10 stamina once a week. I only hope they don't over correct if they go that route.

« Last Edit: August 27, 2019, 12:45:35 PM by Piralyn »

Snique

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Re: World of Warcraft Classic
« Reply #73 on: August 28, 2019, 11:53:02 AM »
Quote
I honestly had a hell of a time finding people I wanted to play with and honestly a lot of the time I wanted to quest solo.

This, rather a lot. I played with Pygment a lot, yay, and I had a few people I found that I liked. But, like, last night my regular raid wasn't running so I PUGged into a random EP heroic run, killed a few bosses, had some fun. If that went away I'd miss it.

Quote
a slim shot at beating bosses in heroic Trial of the Crusader

Gods that place still gives me PTSD. That's where I sneezed and the tank died. Like, literally, in the seconds it took me to go through the human "ah-grab-tissue-CHOO-look-at-screen-again" the tank was dead. I nearly quit WoW on the spot I was so mad.

The "even out massive boss damage spikes" is one of the things I think we've learned about doing MMOs and don't understand why people want that back.

Marco

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Re: World of Warcraft Classic
« Reply #74 on: August 28, 2019, 12:31:23 PM »
Blizzard has upped the capacity limit on classic realms: https://us.forums.blizzard.com/en/wow/t/maximum-realm-capacity-increased-august-28/275248/1

Some players had obviously been asking for this (because they can't otherwise play on their chosen realm, or perhaps on any realm of the right type), but it does pose a risk for when they want to turn off layering--and they've promised to do that before phase 2.  If the amount of player falloff between now and then is on the low side, a lot of servers are going to be like Tichondrius was back in the day.