Deadly Cupcakes

Game Discussion => Theorycrafting and Class Discussion => Topic started by: Marco on August 12, 2018, 09:08:25 AM

Title: Bfanomics
Post by: Marco on August 12, 2018, 09:08:25 AM
A few tips I have picked up:

* Green quest rewards can be scrapped for mats in the capital city.  This is probably a better choice economically than vendoring them.

* Inscription can create "contracts" for the BfA reputations.  When you use a contract, you get a permanent buff (until you use another contract) which grants 10 reputation with that faction for each world quest you complete.  You have to get to friendly with a faction before you can use their contract.  Contract: Champions of Azeroth should be a decent seller at first, since that faction grants item level upgrades for the artifact neck.

* There appears to be a bug with mass milling yields, which might or might not get fixed soon: https://twitter.com/BilisOnyxia/status/1028572773294198785

* Jewelcrafters can craft a +5% XP gem, which should have high demand but probably also high supply as it's green-quality.  I believe a player can only benefit from one of these.

* Enchanters can make glove enchants to speed up crafting.  Glove enchants to speed up skinning, herbalism, and mining in BfA zones also exist to parallel the ones for Legion zones.

* Darkmoon Firewater (obtained through fishing in the faire) greatly increases gathering speed, and still works in BfA zones.  Does not stack with glove enchants.

* Blacksmiths can make two quality-of-life consumables: Monel-Hardened Hoofplates (+20% mount speed for two hours) and Monel-Hardened Stirrups (interact while mounted for two hours).

* Tailors can make 32-slot bags, but the resource cost is significant.  Probably a good long-term moneymaker, but you'll have to run mythic or mythic+ dungeons on your tailoring character to get Hydrocores.

* If you don't care about old recipes, swapping to herbalism for leveling and then to a crafting profession at max level can be an attractive option, since you don't have to catch up to BfA in the crafting profession.
Title: Re: Bfanomics
Post by: Piralyn on August 14, 2018, 06:49:07 AM

* Enchanters can make glove enchants to speed up crafting.  Glove enchants to speed up skinning, herbalism, and mining in BfA zones also exist to parallel the ones for Legion zones.


Worth noting that these barely require any mats. Like 1-2 greens should be enough dust for these.
Title: Re: Bfanomics
Post by: Marco on August 15, 2018, 02:27:01 PM
I saw it asserted that trinkets always yield Explusom when scrapped, and with a sample size of 13 this seems to hold true.  (Expulsom is the BOP crafting material in BfA, used in many higher-end recipes.  Alchemists can transmute to it, but that's the only other source besides the scrapper I'm aware of.)
Title: Re: Bfanomics
Post by: Honorata on August 16, 2018, 07:46:31 AM
I can confirm the Expulsom rate from trinkets, if not 100% (I wasn't paying that close of attention) is much higher than from items for other gear slots.
Title: Re: Bfanomics
Post by: Snique on August 17, 2018, 06:52:58 AM
I'm 2/2 for trinkets and Expulsom. I tested one green and one blue, single output from each.

I'm dubious on the value of scrapping greens versus vendoring. You seem to get a handful of mats, sometimes as little as 1-2 pieces of metal. Greens sell for anywhere from 12-18 gold for cheap ones to 30-32 for average, and sometimes 50+ for weapons. Unless AH mats are insanely more expensive than I think they are, scrapping anything but trinkets appears to be a net money loss.
Title: Re: Bfanomics
Post by: Marco on August 17, 2018, 02:28:15 PM
At this moment I'm showing all three ores (monelite, storm silver, platinum) at 90+g per unit on the AH.  Linen is only around 7-10g per unit, though, so not every scrap is necessarily worth it.
Title: Re: Bfanomics
Post by: Honorata on August 18, 2018, 11:52:41 AM
Getting to the 1-star recipe for the contracts is pretty easy. Inscription skill required is 75. I got to 50 just making the inks from the yield from one 200-stack of Winter's Bite. You'll make lockpick scrolls or raid/party buff scrolls (Lesser Fortitude/Battle Shout/Arcane Intellect) or mass mill from 50-75, and then you can get to contracts.

I suspect the party buff scrolls may be decent sellers (relative to cost of mats) once more people start running mythics.
Title: Re: Bfanomics
Post by: Marco on August 19, 2018, 08:10:26 PM
Mill rates have been pretty definitively determined through data collection by someone much more patient than me.  It seems to be simpler than Legion milling in that all of the common herbs mill to the same stuff: about 0.13 green, 0.32 red, and 0.82 blue pigment per herb milled.  Anchorweed (7-8x as expensive as the other herbs at the moment) yields about 2.5 times as much green as common herbs, and the same amount of red and blue.  Mass milling of anchorweed is still broken in that it yields fewer herbs than milling 5-stacks by hand, but at the moment it's a bad idea to mill anchorweed at all.  It works fine for other herbs.

TLDR: mill (or mass mill) the cheapest kind of common herb, regardless of what kind of pigment you need.

https://www.reddit.com/r/woweconomy/comments/98oyfb/bfa_milling_data_30k_anchor_weed_600k_common_herbs/
Title: Re: Bfanomics
Post by: Marco on August 23, 2018, 10:38:17 AM
(Just noticed that I put this thread in the wrong forum.  It should be in trade and crafting.)

In today's dev Q+A, Ion announced that auction house deposits for crafting materials will be higher if you list small quantities than if you list large quantities.  This change is trying to get rid of the walls of single-stack materials which make it slow to use the AH.
Title: Re: Bfanomics
Post by: Marco on August 24, 2018, 06:07:50 AM
The rogue pickpocketing weekly has been nerfed from 5000g to 2500g.  Still one of the better sources of periodic gold at the moment.
Title: Re: Bfanomics
Post by: Marco on August 24, 2018, 10:08:04 PM
A list of alliance quests which reward trinkets, useful for obtaining a few early Expulsom on crafting alts:

Drustvar:
* Potent Protection (Corlain)
* Tea Party (Glenbrook, Abby Lewis)
* Controlling the Situation (Crimson Forest)
* Terminal Degree (North Pass Caverns, north of Fallhaven)

Tiragarde Sound:
* Witch of the Woods (Hatherford)
* Best In Show (Norwington Estate)
* The Beauty of Marketing (Fizzsprings Resort)

Stormsong:
* Back to the Lab (Mildenhall Meadery)
* You're a Shark (Fort Daelin)
* Storm's Vengeance (mainline story near Mariner's Strand)
Title: Re: Bfanomics
Post by: Marco on August 27, 2018, 08:44:42 PM
In today's dev Q+A, Ion announced that auction house deposits for crafting materials will be higher if you list small quantities than if you list large quantities.  This change is trying to get rid of the walls of single-stack materials which make it slow to use the AH.
The specifics:
Quote
[Following server restarts] The deposit for certain tradeskill goods has increased by 20% of the asking price of a single unit. This cost is constant, regardless of stack size.  As with the standard deposit, this is returned to the seller when the auction successfully sells.
So for a 200 stack you're losing an additional 0.1% of your asking price on a failed sale.

For those crafting Darkmoon cards, a bugfix/buff to the Tides (healing) deck might affect card prices:
Quote
Fixed an issue where Darkmoon Deck: Tides would sometimes activate less often than intended.

https://worldofwarcraft.com/en-us/news/21973195
Title: Re: Bfanomics
Post by: Snique on August 28, 2018, 08:33:19 AM
I've gotten one of my crafters to the point where I can make level 120 gear and follower items. All of them take a LOT of Expulsom. Should I use what I've been able to accumulate in order to help meet gear requirements? Should I equip followers? Is there a better source of unobtainium than random trinkets?
Title: Re: Bfanomics
Post by: Honorata on August 28, 2018, 08:39:56 AM
* I'm only familiar with the "get herbs from missions" thing alchemists can make as far as follower gear goes, and, at least right now, the payout is not worth the cost. As prices come down/if the RNG on returns is retuned, it may become worth it.

* YMMV on if cost of gear is worth it for you. The BOP 355 stuff also takes about two weeks of mythic dungeons to get the hydrocores, and the stats are randomized. Reportedly, scrapping that stuff returns the hydrocores, but not the expulsom or other mats.

* Cheapest way to grind expulsom to my alt scribe for darkmoon cards was to have my tailor/lw make tons and tons of the low-level bracers (the equippable at 111 stuff), and send those to my scribe to scrap. Leather/scales is cheaper than cloth, but LW bracers are limited by blood-stained bones, which is harder to get a hold of, while the tailoring bracers take only cloths & vendor thread.

* If you have an alchemist, you can technically use your daily transmute to make expulsom, make trinkets with the expulsom, send the trinkets to the alt you need the expulsom on, and scrap for 1 expulsom. It's not ideal, but lets you move expulsom from one character to another at a serious expulsom loss.
Title: Re: Bfanomics
Post by: Snique on August 29, 2018, 05:46:27 AM
* Cheapest way to grind expulsom to my alt scribe for darkmoon cards was to have my tailor/lw make tons and tons of the low-level bracers (the equippable at 111 stuff), and send those to my scribe to scrap.

How does this generate unobtainium? I've scrapped all kinds of things and usually I get 1-2 materials per, except trinkets as discussed. I got a gem once from scrapping a ring but that was a 1/20 so far.
Title: Re: Bfanomics
Post by: Marco on August 29, 2018, 06:08:01 AM
Scrapping non-trinkets generates expulsom about 10% of the time.  So for every 200-stack of linen you turn into 20 bracers, you will get an expected 2 expulsom.  It seems like it is more expensive to do this with leatherworking based on market prices, but some people talk about doing that too so maybe I'm missing something.
Title: Re: Bfanomics
Post by: Winston on August 29, 2018, 10:55:27 AM
I'm not an econ major, but: If you are a LW (as Theadora is) and you skin all the time out of habit, it costs nothing to make all those shoulders. Since there's not much useful high-end gear I can make (five 300-ilvl pieces when Theadora gets to 120), I might as well skin+shoulder+scrap and see what I get.
Title: Re: Bfanomics
Post by: Honorata on August 29, 2018, 01:25:37 PM
The argument against that is:
* time is money
* it's not free, you're costing yourself whatever you would have gotten from selling the raw materials on the AH

That said, my experience has been that while blood-stained bones are the sticking point of LW items, they didn't move particularly well when I tried to sell them as materials on the AH either, so you may be better off just processing them into items to scrap, since AH processing fees may make that more profitable than trying to sell the raw mats if you end up having to relist.
Title: Re: Bfanomics
Post by: Honorata on August 30, 2018, 10:05:21 AM
Coming back to this:
Scrapping non-trinkets generates expulsom about 10% of the time.  So for every 200-stack of linen you turn into 20 bracers, you will get an expected 2 expulsom.

If you're churning through a lot of crafted items made with the same materials, don't underestimate how much of those materials you will also get back. I processed about 100 cloth bracers today, and got enough materials back to make another 17 bracers. So the overall expulsom result from crafted stuff will be a skosh higher than 10%, since you can repurpose scrapped materials into more crafted stuff to rescrap.
Title: Re: Bfanomics
Post by: **andius on August 31, 2018, 11:38:16 AM
Coming back to this:
Scrapping non-trinkets generates expulsom about 10% of the time.  So for every 200-stack of linen you turn into 20 bracers, you will get an expected 2 expulsom.

If you're churning through a lot of crafted items made with the same materials, don't underestimate how much of those materials you will also get back. I processed about 100 cloth bracers today, and got enough materials back to make another 17 bracers. So the overall expulsom result from crafted stuff will be a skosh higher than 10%, since you can repurpose scrapped materials into more crafted stuff to rescrap.

Maybe but not by much going by your 17% material return the from the 100 bracers and making and scraping until you can make any more (100>17>3), your looking to increase the expulsom rate from 10% to around 12%.
Title: Re: Bfanomics
Post by: Marco on September 02, 2018, 09:23:06 AM
I looked around for prospecting rates and didn't find anything definitive, but from some data collection on the beta with a good sample size I found:

* Prospecting 200 monelite will yield an expected 1.1 epic gems, 10 rare gems, and 66 common gems.
* Prospecting 200 storm silver will yield an expected 1.3 epic gems, 18 rare gems, and 72 common gems.
* Prospecting 200 platinum will yield an expected 1.6 epic gems, 28 rare gems, and 78 common gems.

https://twitter.com/BilisOnyxia/status/1028365771150381057
https://twitter.com/BilisOnyxia/status/1027765883798794240
https://twitter.com/BilisOnyxia/status/1028368266522185729
Title: Re: Bfanomics
Post by: Marco on September 02, 2018, 10:43:13 PM
I heard about a good skinning spot in Drustvar.  You go to around 54,40 (in the woods south of Fallhaven) and look for a pack of small rabbits--they have low health so won't have health bars in the default UI.  Set up outside of their aggro range, pull them to you and kill them.  Especially when other people are around they often respawn before you are done skinning the bodies.  I was able to accumulate lots of bloodstained bones this way in a short time along with a lot of leather.  I won't be surprised if Blizzard makes the bunnies unskinnable soon; it's not really fair that they skin just as well as mobs with regular amounts of health.

For blacksmiths, Monel-Hardened Stirrups appear to be a pretty hot item at the moment.  Although these have a high crafting cost for a two-hour consumable (25 monelite, or 1250+ gold at current prices), they have maintained a price above 2000 gold for the past five days.  For gatherers they have several benefits over the Sky Golem: they work for mining as well as herbalism, they work on smaller mounts (making it easier to mouse over nodes), and they work with water-walking mounts.  A tank-spec gatherer with the stirrups and swappable herbing/mining gloves can gather very efficiently.  For blacksmiths they have an 8-hour duration, but of course then you can only have one gathering profession.

Prices for some consumables have been ramping up in anticipation of the raid opening.  Some people speculate that this is a bubble and that prices will crash next week, but I think they will remain high for a month or so.  Anchor Weed (the rare herb used for all flasks) is over 500g per unit, though the trend has been downward rather than upward over the past few days.  Common herb prices are also a bit elevated, though not nearly as crazy; Winter's Kiss maintains a relatively low price due to its high availability in Drustvar.  Redtail Loach (a freshwater Zandalari fish used in the best feasts) has been up near 150g per unit, although that might be a temporary result of market manipulation based on my read of the price graph.  Midnight Salmon (a rare fish also used in feasts) is over 500g apiece, although that isn't really up from a week ago.

Veiled Crystals are finally showing signs of heading towards affordability, and are likely to crash with increased supply next week.  Umbra Shards, on the other hand, have jumped in price and may continue to rise; the supply of blues tends to decrease as the supply of purples increases.

Warfronts will also come out soon, and with them will come contribution quests.  Some details are unclear, but these appear likely to bolster prices for common materials, including green gems which are currently very cheap.  Here is an analysis: https://www.reddit.com/r/wowgoblins/comments/9c7qod/warfronts_and_their_potential_impact/ .  (This post claims that warfronts are confirmed for this coming Tuesday but I can't find any corroboration of that.)
Title: Re: Bfanomics
Post by: Marco on September 13, 2018, 11:07:15 AM
Some notes on consumables which can be leveraged for mythic+ runs, and are therefore potential profit centers:

* Skystep Potions are used to skip trash.  (Tank pots and runs past many trash groups and dies; rest of party follows up to a safe point and resurrects the tank.)  They use Starlight Rose and Yseralline Seeds, so the prices of those are also affected (mainly Starlight Rose).

* Invisibility potions can be used to skip trash, and can be made at equal strength (18s duration, 10m cooldown) using mats from the last three expansions:
  - Draenic Invisibility Potion: Crescent Saberfish Flesh (to make Crescent Oil) and Jawless Skulker Flesh
  - Skaggyldrynk: Fjarnskaggl and Yseralline Seeds
  - Draught of Deception: Sand Shifter and Sea Stalk

* Engineering bombs all seem to command a substantial price.  Organic Discombobulation Grenades can polymorph up to five mobs for 20 seconds, making hard packs doable; the others can speed up trash packs.

Of course the standard raid consumables (food, flasks, pots, runes) also apply, as do scrolls and drums to make up for missing party buffs.  Potion of Prolonged Power isn't terrible for being an old-expansion pot, and seems to have a pretty deep market although it doesn't have a high price.
Title: Re: Bfanomics
Post by: Snique on September 16, 2018, 09:48:50 AM
Arathi flipped a short time ago (as I type this). I had thought it would flip tomorrow. With the flip come daily turn-ins. Each is worth 150 rep and 500 AP (with a bonus for the first one - not clear if that's going to be first-per-day, first-per-flip, or first-ever).

Many of the turn-ins are crafted items - a particular cut gem, engineer ammo, etc. - and some are just raw materials. As you can imagine, the price of the raw materials and the components needed to make the turn-in items has shot through the roof. ETA: Marco put a complete list in the 8.0 thread. I'm just lazy.

If you don't want to deal with the AH you can stand at the turn-in NPC and sell direct. Guildmate of mine was charging 500g per turn-in and not lacking for customers.

This deal is only good until we get the bar to 100%.
Title: Re: Bfanomics
Post by: Snique on September 18, 2018, 06:01:46 AM
As noted in the other thread, the turn-in quests are not actually dailies. I won't be able to check until tonight to see if they refresh with the weekly cycle. Given that, and the rush to turn in early, prices on the easy turn-in raw materials have crashed back to near normal. That's somewhat helpful if you're making some of the crafted turn-ins. I tried shout-selling a couple of engineer ammo turn-ins for material price but ore is still stupid expensive and it's 30 ore for the turn-in so nobody wanted to pay that. I tossed a couple on the AH, which is not stupidly far off material price, to see if they'd sell there.

Does anyone know if there are available items that cost large amounts of war resources? My main has north of 2k and I've been somewhat hoarding them for fear I'd need them later for something I really want. Weekly bonus-roll tokens, I guess?
Title: Re: Bfanomics
Post by: Marco on September 18, 2018, 09:00:29 AM
I think the contribution quests only reset on the contribution cycle.

I should have realized and noted that the AP from contribution quests, like any source of AP, will go further after a reset due to the catch-up mechanic.  So doing these turnins today would have been smarter than doing them earlier.  I wound up doing a few of them today but had done several of them before the reset.

From what I can tell, war resources are only useful for:

* Paying for your weekly bonus rolls
* Paying for missions (and troops for missions) if you want something from them:
  - Rep tokens if you still want rep
  - Augment runes, for as long as they have a substantial AH price
  - Pet charms
  - AP
  - gold (low throughput, probably not worth the clicking)
* Warfront contributions (100 per warfront cycle)

So you will tend to build up a surplus if you are actively doing stuff with a character.  A mostly idle character will tend to run out, unless they don't spend resources on any of the above.
Title: Re: Bfanomics
Post by: Marco on September 28, 2018, 11:38:27 AM
A recent hotfix increased the amount of anchor weed obtained per node.  The price of anchor weed on ER has come down a bit, but is still over 500g per unit.

Going by the PTR, it had looked like the anchor weed requirement per flask was going down from 5 to 3 in patch 8.1, but that appears to have been reverted.  Instead, the number of common herbs required for battle potions appears to be decreasing from 18 to 13.ETA: per this tweet (https://twitter.com/WarcraftDevs/status/1045762530818150400) it looks like neither change will be in 8.1, but something as yet unknown will be happening instead.

I believe umbra shard requirements are also decreasing for some weapon enchants, but I think those are the less attractive enchants anyway.
Title: Re: Bfanomics
Post by: Marco on June 18, 2019, 10:28:13 AM
Many professions are getting a kind of partial reset with patch 8.2.  I have some notes on alchemy, as the most economically active profession.

* New flasks are 50% better than old flasks.  New potions are 35% better than old ones.
* New flasks take 20 Zin'anthid (the new herb), 5 old herbs, and 5 anchorweed to make, versus 25 old herbs and 5 anchorweed for old flasks.
* New potions take 8 Zin'anthid and 3 old herbs, versus 18 old herbs for old potions.  There are also two slightly cheaper new potions which take 6 Zin'anthid and no old herbs.

Between flying and the low requirement for old herbs for new potions and flasks, I expect prices of old herbs to crash, while Zin'anthid will probably command a high price early on.  Anchorweed may retain some of its value because the demand remains steady but people won't have as much reason to farm old herbs.  With low prices for old herbs and no anchorweed requirement, old potions might be a reasonable option.

(Transitional caveats: flying requires revered with both new factions, which will probably take 2-3 weeks for people to earn.  The new raid won't be open until two weeks after the patch drops.  People will have to obtain the rank 3 recipes to get the material costs I mentioned above.)

https://www.wowhead.com/news=292312/alchemy-changes-in-patch-8-2-rise-of-azshara-upgraded-flasks-and-potions
Title: Re: Bfanomics
Post by: Marco on October 08, 2019, 09:38:31 AM
One of the side goals of the auction house revamp (details here (https://us.forums.blizzard.com/en/wow/t/feedback-auction-house-revamp/324822/1)) is to reduce undercutting for stackable items.  To that end, "auctions at the same price point are sold last in, first out," and a seller who tries to undercut by a small amount will get a prompt explaining the LIFO sell order.  This change has created a lot of conversation.  I've seen the following general categories of comments:

* "This is unfair, and will reward people who camp the auction house and re-list their items at the same price (either by having a large stock or by cancelling and eating the deposits)."  That's true, but as long as small undercuts are allowed, later sellers will get their auctions sold first regardless of the sell order.  There are compromises (such as random order or round-robin by unit) but they would leave an incentive to do small undercuts.

* "This won't solve the problem; people will undercut by small amounts anyway."  They might, out of habit or misunderstanding, but I don't think there's any real incentive to undercut by small amounts with a LIFO sell order.

* "You mentioned undercutting, and my pet peeve is large undercuts, even though they are completely out of scope for this change."  Large undercuts are sometimes necessary to create a larger market for an item, and at other times are foolish.  Without buy orders or market making, it's up to sellers to figure out which is the case when.

One person observed that you can still create a "wall" of single-unit auctions by posting them all at slightly different prices.  Copper is no longer allowed for stackable items, so the prices would have to differ by one silver each.  It's not clear why anyone would want to create a wall this in the new system, since people can't (and don't need to) bypass your lower-priced auctions to get to larger stacks anyway.  [ETA: I guess people will create walls to disguise the fact that the market at their price is very shallow.  For instance, if Tidespray Linen is selling at 5g and I want to drive the price down to 2g, selling twenty units at 2g is really obvious, but selling twenty units at 2g..2g19s s to create a wall is less obvious, because the 5g price isn't visible any more.]
Title: Re: Bfanomics
Post by: Piralyn on October 08, 2019, 11:39:33 AM
I've played another game or two with that arrangement for commodities (crafting mats, et cetera), and I don't recall ever feeling like I had a problem with either end of the transactions. On a smaller server like ours, there's a chance that LIFO will cause some problems with undercutting, but by and large, the volume of transactions for most of these things should smooth out any of that. It's theoretically going to be a larger problem for old mats, since there's a really only a minor number of transactions happening for those--but I'd rather have a significantly easier to use auction house where I can go and buy # of what I need without having to sort and scroll through 37 pages of 1-5 item stacks to make sure I'm not buying something double the price/etc. I don't have a lot of sympathy for people trying to wring an extra 5% gold out of Saronite Ore or whatever.
Title: Re: Bfanomics
Post by: Marco on February 05, 2020, 02:44:13 PM
Tidespray Linen is as cheap as I have seen it on this server, with a large amount available at 1.65g.  It doesn't usually go much below 1.8g as you can craft and vendor legs to make a profit at that price.  But it's also a cheap way to generate gloom dust and umbra shards for enchants.  I have been moving ring and weapon enchants at a pretty good clip since 8.3 launched, so it's nice to have a cheap way to regenerate my supply of the low-level mats.  There are more complicated shuffles to generate veiled crystals, but for the moment I have a large number of leftover prismatic manapearls which can be converted to veiled crystals via benthic gear.

Zin'anthid commands a high price as it is still needed for the best flasks.  Farming it has been slow (though it has been getting a bit better), as multibox farmers have flocked to Naz'jatar for profits.  Osmenite spiked in price in the second week of 8.3, but has been settling down as demand for the new crafted gear has declined.

Old herb prices have been inconsistent, though generally higher than before the patch.  The new favorites list in the base auction house UI is convenient for quickly finding out which old herb is cheapest at the moment.