Author Topic: Rogues  (Read 4913 times)

AdmiralShardy

  • Ahoy!
  • Cupcakes Member
  • Hero Member
  • *
  • Posts: 605
    • Twitter Account
Rogues
« on: October 12, 2010, 02:40:18 PM »
So I hear we still shiv things.  And stuff.

Actually, it looks like they nerfed Blade Flurry.  Boo.  I guess I won't be pairing it with Killing Spree durong single-target boss battles anymore.

Somebody can probably talk about assassination tree stuff, but it won't be me!  Oh, and does anybody know if sub will be viable for PvE yet?  Falafal wants to know.
« Last Edit: February 24, 2011, 10:44:31 AM by Edalia »
Admiral Shardrell, Retired Nelfy Pirate
Julia Cappo, Active Guild Wars 2 Pirate.  I like pirates.
Twitter: @BeckyCFreelance

AdmiralShardy

  • Ahoy!
  • Cupcakes Member
  • Hero Member
  • *
  • Posts: 605
    • Twitter Account
Re: Life after 4.0.1: Rogues
« Reply #1 on: October 12, 2010, 07:24:33 PM »
I approve of the changes to Fan of Knives.  It's quite spammable now.  :D
Admiral Shardrell, Retired Nelfy Pirate
Julia Cappo, Active Guild Wars 2 Pirate.  I like pirates.
Twitter: @BeckyCFreelance

Snique

  • Cupcakes Member
  • Hero Member
  • *
  • Posts: 1790
Re: Life after 4.0.1: Rogues
« Reply #2 on: October 13, 2010, 09:15:58 AM »
In beta (and apparently on the PTR) Mut rogues were coming in well above Combat in group/raid damage.  So I'm sticking with Mut for now.

However, I can't find any useful Prime glyphs for Mut - anyone got suggestions?

AdmiralShardy

  • Ahoy!
  • Cupcakes Member
  • Hero Member
  • *
  • Posts: 605
    • Twitter Account
Re: Life after 4.0.1: Rogues
« Reply #3 on: October 13, 2010, 10:14:52 AM »
Well, Combat did get a buff on the PTR quite recently.  Plus, we're more gear-dependent than muti, so we'll see what happens when we start getting raid-geared with stuff that was designed for the new stat balance in Cata.
Admiral Shardrell, Retired Nelfy Pirate
Julia Cappo, Active Guild Wars 2 Pirate.  I like pirates.
Twitter: @BeckyCFreelance

AdmiralShardy

  • Ahoy!
  • Cupcakes Member
  • Hero Member
  • *
  • Posts: 605
    • Twitter Account
Re: Life after 4.0.1: Rogues
« Reply #4 on: October 23, 2010, 01:32:02 PM »
Good neeeews, everyone!  (From GC Q&A at Blizzcon)

Quote
12:19 pm "What's the future of combat rogues? Damage right now is very very low, mutilate is higher. Premonition ran tests and mutilate is way ahead. Subtlety was bugged with Honor Among Thieves."

A: Combat could use some help right now. Their mastery stat is quite weak. That's being quadrupled in power, should make it a viable stat that compares favorably with haste and expertise. Just a matter of numbers. They want combat rogues to be about macro-level planning, somewhat akin to how an arcane mage plays in relation to its other specs. Resources are key.
Admiral Shardrell, Retired Nelfy Pirate
Julia Cappo, Active Guild Wars 2 Pirate.  I like pirates.
Twitter: @BeckyCFreelance

Nmap

  • Adjective Noun Raid Leader
  • Hero Member
  • *
  • Posts: 864
  • Bone Thug
Re: Life after 4.0.1: Rogues
« Reply #5 on: October 24, 2010, 09:42:48 AM »
Aye, I read that last night.  Since I do not possess any daggers I have been playing around with axes in Sub.  I have not had a chance to raid with it yet but I do believe it is on par with current combat and in a raid I am expecting it to exceed combat.

Also with that expected buff I would think mastery would become a good stat to concentrate on.

AdmiralShardy

  • Ahoy!
  • Cupcakes Member
  • Hero Member
  • *
  • Posts: 605
    • Twitter Account
Re: Life after 4.0.1: Rogues
« Reply #6 on: October 25, 2010, 03:28:34 PM »
Yeah, I'm honestly not going to worry about stat balance/stacking until I'm 85.  I'm sure I can do plenty of damage with whatever rogue-type stats I happen to find on levelling gear until then, since I'm sure there will be several patches and various changes in the stat landscape between now and when Cata raiding starts.
Admiral Shardrell, Retired Nelfy Pirate
Julia Cappo, Active Guild Wars 2 Pirate.  I like pirates.
Twitter: @BeckyCFreelance

Gellin

  • Master Waffler
  • CotRR Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 640
Re: Life after 4.0.1: Rogues
« Reply #7 on: November 05, 2010, 09:16:39 AM »
So please excuse my ignorance, I have been out of the loop for a while. But what is the best rogue PVP spec right now? Or has there been any comments on it? Also I was reading that you used axes with sub, are you still liking that? Are swords also viable with Sub? I have wanted to try out a non-dagger spec but am not a fan of combat (or at least I wasn't).
Current addictions ... Bioshock Infinite, Starcraft 2 and Mass Effect 3 (Single and Multiplayer).

Nmap

  • Adjective Noun Raid Leader
  • Hero Member
  • *
  • Posts: 864
  • Bone Thug
Re: Life after 4.0.1: Rogues
« Reply #8 on: November 05, 2010, 10:40:30 AM »
So please excuse my ignorance, I have been out of the loop for a while. But what is the best rogue PVP spec right now? Or has there been any comments on it? Also I was reading that you used axes with sub, are you still liking that? Are swords also viable with Sub? I have wanted to try out a non-dagger spec but am not a fan of combat (or at least I wasn't).

PVP wise Sub is still probably the best in mobility with high burst.  If you dont have daggers its probably not worth PVP'ing with since you are relying mostly on bleeds for damage with some ambushes as burst.

Sub with axes (swords work the same) was fun but seemed to produce about the same dps as combat.  For me it was just too much to keep up with so I was not using it to its full potential.  Ive been playing around with it still but I mostly use combat.  Now that my timers have been fixed I should probably screw with sub again.  I like sub but its frustrating to see all the dagger specific abilities go to waste since I dont have any daggers.

Mut is probably the best single target raid spec and probably still an excellent choice for pvp.  Im quite excited about having an execute if I can ever get the 10H daggers to drop.

Rogues in general are in a very poor state right now.  We are not even competative in the only thing we can do in a raid.  World of Logs rankings are pretty solid proof.  There are "fixes" comming but Im not at all convinced it will put us back where we belong.

AdmiralShardy

  • Ahoy!
  • Cupcakes Member
  • Hero Member
  • *
  • Posts: 605
    • Twitter Account
Re: Life after 4.0.1: Rogues
« Reply #9 on: November 05, 2010, 07:17:35 PM »
Are you talking beta World of Logs raid logs or Live ones?  I know Combat is a bit behind, though we're slowly getting buffed every other beta patch or so.  I hadn't heard that Muti was uncompetitive on beta.
Admiral Shardrell, Retired Nelfy Pirate
Julia Cappo, Active Guild Wars 2 Pirate.  I like pirates.
Twitter: @BeckyCFreelance

Nmap

  • Adjective Noun Raid Leader
  • Hero Member
  • *
  • Posts: 864
  • Bone Thug
Re: Life after 4.0.1: Rogues
« Reply #10 on: December 17, 2010, 06:22:43 AM »
Bump!

I finally got around to playing assassination.  All I have to say is its much much easier than combat and feels way less clunky.  This expansion I will probably be playing what ever the numbers tell me to so I hope it stays assassination.

Combat:
Combat has way too much going on.  I dont feel my below description does it justice on how terribad it really is.  I think its mostly just watching and coordinating timers that makes it ridiculous.

Rotation: Keep S&D up 100%. SS to 4 CP, RS Rupture.  If rupture is up use evis.  Save/time KSp and AR for 15% Bandits Guile buff. Always KSp first and save AR for a follow up as AR will help reduce the cooldown of KSp. Use other abilities as needed.

Revealing Strikes: Only accounts for a miniscule amount of dps.  Ive read about 100dps if its hit every time.  For an extra button in the rotation this really isnt worth it with everything else going on.

Bandits Guile: We are supposed to save cool downs for when this goes green to maximise dps.  I feel this is a very bad mechanic and yet another thing to look at and time for.

Blade Flurry: I wont count this as another thing to look at just because they nerfed the living hell out of this. The reduction of energy regen by 20% and no more extra attack speed makes this ability pretty bad. I dont know if FoK synergizes with this anymore but I pretty much activate it, killing spree, and deactivate.

Killing Spree: One of our abilities which makes watching the timers tedious.  While it is a dps boost it feels like its not hitting nearly as hard anymore.

 Adrenaline Rush: Just another of our abilities which makes watching the timers tedious. I generally save this as an oh shit button or on a boss.  Not a usual use thing for me.

Assassination:
It was so relaxing playing this the last couple of days and I feel my dps increased to boot!  It feels less clunky than it did in WotLK.  Combo point generation felt about as fast as HaT currently is.

Rotation example: Ambush, Mut, S&D.  Mut to 4 or 5 CP, Rupture. Mut to 4 or 5 CP, Envenom (which refreshes S&D).  Pretty much keep rupture up, envenom will take care of S&D.  Use Vanish as a dps cooldown.  May want to save it for Hero or something.  Really depends on the timing. At 35% spam backstab instead of Mut. Vendetta whenever.

Cold Blood: This is really my only complaint about this tree and its a small complaint.  Ive never been a fan of this ability since our crit chance is usually high enough anyways.  I havent looked but it should either be saved for a 5 point envenom or maybe an ambush.

AdmiralShardy

  • Ahoy!
  • Cupcakes Member
  • Hero Member
  • *
  • Posts: 605
    • Twitter Account
Re: Life after 4.0.1: Rogues
« Reply #11 on: December 17, 2010, 09:24:16 AM »
Heh, it's exactly the timer/cooldown management that attracts me to Combat.  Because of our cooldowns, I feel like I have more freedom in being able to push my DPS when needed.  This has come in very handy in our raid on several occasions, i.e. [Vent: "Damn it, we're so close, but we're going to hit the enrage timer..."  ::Shardy pops cooldowns::  Vent: "Oh, I guess we made it."]  I think Combat is one of the few DPS specs these days in which "DPS harder" actually means something. :)

That said, doing a plain Jane Combat Classic(tm) rotation doesn't seem to be a big deal, as seen on Elitist Jerks:

Quote
Q: What's the optimal cycle?
A: Keep SnD up, spam 5pt finishers - Rupture if its down, Eviscerate otherwise. Basically what we called "low rupture" in Wrath. However, see the next two answers for additional comments.

Q: Is it viable to drop Rupture from the rotation?
A: It appears to be about a 1% DPS loss to do so.

Q: How should RvS be used?
A: Optimal use involves using it only when at exactly 4 CP. However, the difference between that and never hitting it at all appears to be around 100 DPS, so on complex fights it may well make sense to ignore it completely so as to be able to spend more attention elsewhere.

Q: So the difference between doing the 5-button RvS/SS/SnD/Rupture/Evis cycle and the 3-button SS/SnD/Evis cycle is less than 2%?
A: That's about the size of it, yes.

Of course, if you prefer Assassination, you should totally run with it.  I like when they two specs are pretty close, so that we can feel like we're making a choice based on personal preference rather than strict numbers.

(It would be nice if they buffed Revealing Strikes a bit... that could help raiding Combat rogues make up the final ground we'd need to pull even with Assassination.  And yes, I'm sad that they nerfed blade flurry so much.)
« Last Edit: December 17, 2010, 09:27:18 AM by AdmiralShardy »
Admiral Shardrell, Retired Nelfy Pirate
Julia Cappo, Active Guild Wars 2 Pirate.  I like pirates.
Twitter: @BeckyCFreelance

Edalia

  • Red Velvet
  • Cupcakes Admin
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4128
Re: Life after 4.0.1: Rogues
« Reply #12 on: December 17, 2010, 10:30:57 AM »
Heh, it's exactly the timer/cooldown management that attracts me to Combat.

Come on. We all know you like Combat because you're Shardy and you don't do daggers ;).
o/\o

AdmiralShardy

  • Ahoy!
  • Cupcakes Member
  • Hero Member
  • *
  • Posts: 605
    • Twitter Account
Re: Life after 4.0.1: Rogues
« Reply #13 on: December 17, 2010, 01:09:17 PM »
Don't tell anyone I'm wielding a dagger in my offhand right now.
Admiral Shardrell, Retired Nelfy Pirate
Julia Cappo, Active Guild Wars 2 Pirate.  I like pirates.
Twitter: @BeckyCFreelance

Nmap

  • Adjective Noun Raid Leader
  • Hero Member
  • *
  • Posts: 864
  • Bone Thug
Re: Life after 4.0.1: Rogues
« Reply #14 on: December 19, 2010, 09:09:51 AM »
Heh, it's exactly the timer/cooldown management that attracts me to Combat.  Because of our cooldowns, I feel like I have more freedom in being able to push my DPS when needed.  This has come in very handy in our raid on several occasions, i.e.

I completely agree with everything you said and not trying to persuade anyone otherwise.  Ive had raid times where I was able to save the day only because I was playing Combat.  I just want to point out that historically pushing the DPS push has come at sub 35% which is when Assassination can really start pumping out the damage due to Murderous Intent.