Author Topic: Garrosh Hellscream  (Read 4883 times)

jsoh

  • Three Rivers Member
  • Hero Member
  • *
  • Posts: 2735
Re: Garrosh Hellscream
« Reply #15 on: February 11, 2014, 06:03:51 AM »
In re: ranged positioning.

TRR sets up a triangle. Point A is in the centre of the room and represents where Garrosh is tanked. Point B is back (i.e., nearer to entrance) and to the left. Point C is on the same level as Point B, but to the right.

Everyone (i.e., ranged) starts on C. The instant the desecrate graphics show, everyone books it to B immediately. The weapon is dps'd down, and once dead, everyone moves back to C again. Thus, all ranged should be at C before the flaming wheel hits. Rinse, lather, repeat for all weapon spawns.

When people are running to B, the person assigned to murder the engineer typically keeps on running to the left, so they're in range for when the engineer spawns. They typically have enough time to kill the engineer, and make it back to point C well before the wheel hits.

As for dps, its key to make sure that you have the wheel hitting the adds. If you're not, you're likely going to not be able to generate enough dps to clean them up.

Edalia

  • Red Velvet
  • Cupcakes Admin
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4133
Re: Garrosh Hellscream
« Reply #16 on: February 11, 2014, 07:45:47 AM »
For adds:

1) Every interrupt on the Wolf Rider increases his casting speed. It's a bit of untraining, but make sure your DPS/tank interrupters are only interrupting Chain Heals.

2) Adds take about 50% of their health in damage from the Iron Star, so make sure your DPS is only getting them down to about half and DPSing Garrosh for the rest.

3) When I tank adds, I bring them in to Garrosh for cleaves and AoE, but as the star is coming, I stun and snare them (they are already snared from Keg Smash, but they may need to be snared if you don't have a Monk OT). The star rolls over them and usually kills them.
o/\o

jsoh

  • Three Rivers Member
  • Hero Member
  • *
  • Posts: 2735
Re: Garrosh Hellscream
« Reply #17 on: February 11, 2014, 08:00:44 AM »
Once again, the nifty replay feature of warcraftlogs shows more clearly our p1 positioning:

http://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/cbdCGfRk6hvK9P1x#view=replay

We have our tame warlock set up his demonic gateway between points B and C for ease of travel. The rate of iron star spawns is such that you can't use the gateway for every star, however.

(note: I'm amused at the way that the replay handles the temple intermissions)

Snique

  • Cupcakes Member
  • Hero Member
  • *
  • Posts: 1868
Re: Garrosh Hellscream
« Reply #18 on: February 11, 2014, 10:42:19 AM »
That's cool - I had no idea you could do that.  You guys seem to take WAY less damage than we do.

And yes, we're letting chain lightnings go - thus the dangerous CL-iron star combo.  Thanks for the URL.

ghoselle

  • Three Rivers Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2015
    • Three Rivers
Re: Garrosh Hellscream
« Reply #19 on: February 11, 2014, 12:00:21 PM »
That's cool - I had no idea you could do that.  You guys seem to take WAY less damage than we do.

Not having looked at your damage -- but if you are taking a lot of damage from iron stars, it means you are standing to close to where the iron star hits the wall (that's why the TRR strat has the ranged defaulting to standing in the position furthest from the wall the iron star hits).  The closer to the detonation point, the more damage you take.  If you are taking to much damage from weapons, people need to be moving faster -- you can often manage to take only 1 tick of the weapon damage.  If you are taking to much damage from the whirling corruptions, make sure you are standing at max range from Garrosh (or maybe a little further for melee).  If you are taking more damage in the temple phases, make sure people are being good about getting the debuff from the white globes.  (As a tank who tosses heals around during the temple phase, I can tell you that I can really tell the who missed picking up a globe -- the difference in damage taken is dramatic.  Those are the people who the healers fall behind in healing.)


Edalia

  • Red Velvet
  • Cupcakes Admin
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4133
Re: Garrosh Hellscream
« Reply #20 on: February 11, 2014, 12:27:12 PM »
the difference in damage taken is dramatic.

I'd say approximately twice as much :). It's important to note as a raid leader who does or does not have the temple debuff (it's not a buff) and call for them to use personal DR CDs. DBM should show a list.
o/\o

ghoselle

  • Three Rivers Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2015
    • Three Rivers
Re: Garrosh Hellscream
« Reply #21 on: February 11, 2014, 12:53:50 PM »
the difference in damage taken is dramatic.

I'd say approximately twice as much :). It's important to note as a raid leader who does or does not have the temple debuff (it's not a buff) and call for them to use personal DR CDs. DBM should show a list.

From my perspective, the difference is "the healers' AoE healing immediately heal the person almost to full" and "I can drop a 300k heal in to them and not have it overheal almost as fast as I can proc them".

Edalia

  • Red Velvet
  • Cupcakes Admin
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4133
Re: Garrosh Hellscream
« Reply #22 on: February 11, 2014, 12:56:42 PM »
From my perspective, the difference is "the healers' AoE healing immediately heal the person almost to full" and "I can drop a 300k heal in to them and not have it overheal almost as fast as I can proc them".

I was joking in that the debuff reduces damage taken by 50%. But yes, it is quite noticeable on Grid who does and does not have it.
o/\o

HeidiB

  • Cupcakes Member
  • Hero Member
  • *
  • Posts: 1989
Re: Garrosh Hellscream
« Reply #23 on: February 11, 2014, 01:33:03 PM »
Except on Terrace, I haven't been able to reliably stand in the white bubble.  I compensate by hitting damage reduction cooldowns when we get to Garrosh.

I suspect that if you're careful to keep the raid together (time-wise as well as position-wise, in the case of the temple with parallel staircases) you could make it easier to be in the bubbles when they pop.

jsoh

  • Three Rivers Member
  • Hero Member
  • *
  • Posts: 2735
Re: Garrosh Hellscream
« Reply #24 on: February 11, 2014, 01:40:07 PM »
As a healer, its stupidly obvious as to who got the damage reducing debuff in the temples, and who didn't. Having more than 2-3 people fail to get the shiny bubbles is typically the difference between the temples being ok, and the temples being zomgwtfbbqarrrrrghNO CARRIER

Snique

  • Cupcakes Member
  • Hero Member
  • *
  • Posts: 1868
Re: Garrosh Hellscream
« Reply #25 on: February 21, 2014, 06:08:23 AM »
We've decided to fall back to trying this in flex so we get practice on the fight.  We're still using a fairly standard 10-person/2-healer set-up.  It's looking like having two melee is better for keeping adds locked down/killed and for handling interrupts during mind-control episodes.  Thoughts?

We're pretty consistently getting him to the 10-12% life state but then things fall apart.  The usual failure is that people are spread out dealing with adds when an MC happens and there just aren't enough interrupts to keep people from being converted.  Suggestions?

We're trying the "mark one healer as a gather spot for ranged+heals" but between the adds and desecrated weapons the group is too spread out too much of the time. (or so it seems right now).

And one side note: in the intermission room with the split staircases and two large adds at the bottom, how do you get the damage-reducing effect?  I've stood under the add when it died, run through the poo pile it leaves afterward, etc.  No (de)buff.

Marco

  • Three Rivers Member
  • Hero Member
  • *
  • Posts: 6643
Re: Garrosh Hellscream
« Reply #26 on: February 21, 2014, 06:38:23 AM »
It's looking like having two melee is better for keeping adds locked down/killed and for handling interrupts during mind-control episodes.  Thoughts?
I think if you're positioning correctly for touch, it doesn't matter much what your DPS comp is, because nobody's interrupt is going to come back off cooldown during an MC anyway.

Quote
We're pretty consistently getting him to the 10-12% life state but then things fall apart.  The usual failure is that people are spread out dealing with adds when an MC happens and there just aren't enough interrupts to keep people from being converted.  Suggestions?
10-12% life in which phase?

If in phase 2, you need to get faster at killing the adds.  Each empowered whirling corruption is followed by a desecrate, then a touch.  The adds should be about 75% dead when the desecrate happens and you should be able to group up for the ensuing touch while cleaning up the remainder.

If in phase 3, do a taunt swap at the beginning of the first empowered whirling corruption and have the other tank pick up the adds and (if possible) kite them a bit, while the DPS stays on Garrosh.  Single-tank Garrosh for the rest of the fight.  You have a limited amount of time before one or the other tank dies but it's hopefully enough.  Group up the entire raid for touches in this phase because empowered touches are difficult with two groups.  I think I have notes earlier in the thread about how we move to accomplish that; the touches always happen after a desecrate and you should only have two of them, so it's relatively straightforward

Quote
We're trying the "mark one healer as a gather spot for ranged+heals" but between the adds and desecrated weapons the group is too spread out too much of the time. (or so it seems right now).
I'm still having to yell at my group a lot about this, but: during the empowered whirling corruption, it's very tempting to move forward along the kite path in order to spread out.  Don't do this.  DPS should move directly away from Garrosh instead, and healers should try to remain in the same place except to dodge purple clumps.  If you see a desecrate appear forward along the kite path trapping most of the group behind it, identify who it was on and correct them.

Once the desecrate happens, call out for the ranged group to gather back up before the touch.

Quote
And one side note: in the intermission room with the split staircases and two large adds at the bottom, how do you get the damage-reducing effect?
When the add dies it will fire a single damage-reducing debuff in some direction, arcing through the air.  Up to five people standing where it lands will receive the debuff.  Running through it after lands will only get it for one person.  Because of the staircase, it can be hard to angle your camera so that you can see it, and I still fail with some regularity.

I'm not sure what determines the direction of firing exactly, but we make sure that all three DPS and the healer are standing at the add's feet on Garrosh's side, with the tank facing the add upstairs so that melee can attack from the back.  I think this helps prevent the debuff from being fired upstairs too far, which would  be bad because it could result in people getting stuck in Garrosh's first annihilate.  Once the debuff lands, everyone needs to immediately run toward's Garrosh to avoid being in a wide cone that they can't dodge out of.
« Last Edit: February 21, 2014, 06:41:25 AM by Marco »

Snique

  • Cupcakes Member
  • Hero Member
  • *
  • Posts: 1868
Re: Garrosh Hellscream
« Reply #27 on: February 24, 2014, 06:46:36 AM »
Wow.  Thanks for taking the time to write all this up - it's insanely useful.

10-12% life in which phase?

Phase ?3? I guess, depends on how you count.  It's when you don't go to intermission and he hulks out and starts throwing empowered weapons.

Quote
If in phase 3, do a taunt swap at the beginning of the first empowered whirling corruption and have the other tank pick up the adds and (if possible) kite them a bit, while the DPS stays on Garrosh.  Single-tank Garrosh for the rest of the fight.

What I understand you to say is, "Don't waste time/DPS trying to kill the adds in Phase 3, just deal with their damage."  Is that right?

Quote
Group up the entire raid for touches in this phase because empowered touches are difficult with two groups.

So we're all in a bunch and he's going to throw a weapon into the bunch and the tank just drags him out with the raid trailing along?

Quote
during the empowered whirling corruption, it's very tempting to move forward along the kite path in order to spread out.

I don't think we have this level of sophistication about it.  We're trying to get the melee to move out of the close circle of high damage, but beyond that not doing much.

Quote
When the add dies it will fire a single damage-reducing debuff in some direction, arcing through the air.  Up to five people standing where it lands will receive the debuff.  Running through it after lands will only get it for one person.  Because of the staircase, it can be hard to angle your camera so that you can see it, and I still fail with some regularity.

OK I think this is what is happening and I'm not seeing it.  Flipping the add around so we're behind it with our backs to Garrosh should improve visibility.  I will try this.

Thanks again, that's a lot of improvements we can make.

Marco

  • Three Rivers Member
  • Hero Member
  • *
  • Posts: 6643
Re: Garrosh Hellscream
« Reply #28 on: February 24, 2014, 07:09:50 AM »
Phase ?3? I guess, depends on how you count.  It's when you don't go to intermission and he hulks out and starts throwing empowered weapons.
That's phase 3, per the dungeon journal.

Quote
What I understand you to say is, "Don't waste time/DPS trying to kill the adds in Phase 3, just deal with their damage."  Is that right?
Right.  Having the OT (after taunt swap) gather most of them up should make their damage tolerable for long enough to win the fight.  The OT will want to use major defensive CDs after picking up the adds and the MT (after taunt swap) will want to use them when stacks of the debuff get high.
Quote
Quote
Group up the entire raid for touches in this phase because empowered touches are difficult with two groups.
So we're all in a bunch and he's going to throw a weapon into the bunch and the tank just drags him out with the raid trailing along?
The ability order is desecrate -> touch -> whirling.  Gather for touch, handle it, move out for the subsequent whirling, then gather again after desecrate.  http://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/LKMQq1af9V7xBHnZ#view=replay starting at 7:15 shows our phase 3 movement.

You can do this in phase 2 as well if you're having trouble with touches, although it will cost you some DPS.  Just before the second temple there will be a desecrate -> whirling, so you have to anticipate that and not group up after that desecrate.

ghoselle

  • Three Rivers Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2015
    • Three Rivers
Re: Garrosh Hellscream
« Reply #29 on: February 24, 2014, 08:17:12 AM »
Quote
What I understand you to say is, "Don't waste time/DPS trying to kill the adds in Phase 3, just deal with their damage."  Is that right?
Right.  Having the OT (after taunt swap) gather most of them up should make their damage tolerable for long enough to win the fight.  The OT will want to use major defensive CDs after picking up the adds and the MT (after taunt swap) will want to use them when stacks of the debuff get high.

To be clear - the OT doesn't need to be building much threat on these guys.  You need enough to keep the healers from pulling them off you, but there is no dps on them.  Kiting them is a very good plan.  Any sort of knockbacks or slows are good, but I think roots don't work.  Our hunter often puts down a slowing frost trap that I'll kite them through.  The goal here is solely to keep the adds from beating on anyone else while the OT is taking as little damage as possible.    (For bear's, typhoon and ursol's vortex are excellent for this; throwing a thrash on them to keep aggro.  For monks, using roll aggressively while throwing kegs to build threat and slow them.  I don't know the other tank's tools well enough to comment.)  Its okay to miss 1-3 adds on the initial pickup as long as they are not on one person - just taunt them when you can.