Author Topic: Hearthstone (and battlenet desktop)  (Read 61944 times)

Snique

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Re: Hearthstone (and battlenet desktop)
« Reply #45 on: December 19, 2013, 06:21:44 AM »
In one of the recent patches they changed the sound so that when the draft presents you with rare or epic card choices you get a different sound.  That said, there's a WIDE variability in the usefulness of these cards. Jaraxxus for example is severely OP.

Thanks for the link to the tutorials (gods, an hour apiece?).  I find these days I lose a lot of ranked games to people who have rare-heavy or epic-heavy decks.  Then again, I lose a lot period.  I'm currently 9-20 in arenas.

Snique

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Re: Hearthstone (and battlenet desktop)
« Reply #46 on: December 19, 2013, 11:22:19 AM »
Ribbo: Gain 8 life is "awful?"  Say what?

Also, "you rarely run out of cards in Hearthstone".  Orly?  I run out all the bloody time.

Cree

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Re: Hearthstone (and battlenet desktop)
« Reply #47 on: December 19, 2013, 12:19:10 PM »
Ribbo: Gain 8 life is "awful?"  Say what?

Also, "you rarely run out of cards in Hearthstone".  Orly?  I run out all the bloody time.

One of the thing I'm still learning is how to prevent myself from getting card starved without stacking my deck with draw extra card cards. Still don't quite have the hang of it.

Cree (Dr 110) Haikili (Sh 102) Eep (Ma 93) Elisya (Dk 81) Maxine (Pa 85) Urusai (R 90) Gihr (H 83) Nikolievna (Wk 100) Anae (Pr 99) Ressha (Wr 76) Mayu (Mo 36) Adali (DH 110)

Marco

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Re: Hearthstone (and battlenet desktop)
« Reply #48 on: December 19, 2013, 12:27:26 PM »
Also, "you rarely run out of cards in Hearthstone".  Orly?  I run out all the bloody time.
Do you mean you run out of cards in your deck and get fatigue damage, or that you run out of cards in your hand and can only play one card per turn as a result?  I see the latter frequently when Cree plays, but rarely the former.

Snique

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Re: Hearthstone (and battlenet desktop)
« Reply #49 on: December 19, 2013, 01:04:28 PM »
I run out of cards to play and have more in the deck.  I rarely run out my deck unless I'm playing warlock and the other guy has a denial deck of some kind.

Having watched how he plays in arenas I see what he's talking about, though.  Very interesting.  I will go tweak some decks and try again.

Edalia

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Re: Hearthstone (and battlenet desktop)
« Reply #50 on: December 20, 2013, 09:34:03 AM »
Ribbo: Gain 8 life is "awful?"  Say what?

I'm not sure exactly what card you're referring to, but this is a common question new MTG players ask, as well. You see a card that says "Gain 8 life" and think "that's great!" It seems great! You're playing HS and you get down to 4 life, then you play a card that gains 8 life, now you're at 12! Plenty of time to draw another card that will win.

But what this indicates is an opportunity cost. If you cast a spell, like Ice Armor, which (effectively) gains 8 life, you are also NOT casting a spell, like Fireball, that deals damage. Or you're not casting a minion. Or if you're casting, say, Guardian of Kings, which gains 6 life and leaves you with a  5/6, you're NOT casting Stormwind Champion (6/6, +1/+1 for your team) or Ravenholdt Assassin (7/5 Stealth), which both are better at closing out games, getting a two-for-one, or trading up.

Gaining life by itself isn't often worth a whole card or draw step. It doesn't advance your plan of getting the opponent down to 0, it just delays losing. And no matter how well you delay losing, if you don't have something that can eventually win that makes up for all the delay, your opponent will run you over.
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Snique

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Re: Hearthstone (and battlenet desktop)
« Reply #51 on: December 23, 2013, 05:31:16 AM »
I think the comparison is inapt because of the disparate costs.  I'm getting 8 life for 3 mana, plus it's a secret that causes my opponent to have to change his strategy.  All the cards you list are 6+ mana and I agree they're superior to 2xIce Armor but not to 1x.

THAT said, I've taken a lot of Ribbo's advice to heart and stripped out almost all the draw-card things from my deck.  The 5-mana rare drake that gives +1 spelldam, draw a card and is a decent 4/4 or 4/5 stays, and I like the 5 armor/draw 1 that warrior gets but I pulled out all the el-cheapo draw cards.  I'm also much less likely to play 1 health minions now, swapped out bears for Taurens in all decks except the hunter, etc.

My win rate is slowly creeping back up - I'm definitely over 1 in 3 now and may be approaching 1 in 2.  I went 2-3 in my latest arena despite having a craptastic hunter deck. I think I need to stop playing hunter in arenas.

I'm now losing to people with a lot more rare/unique cards and to people who just play better and have good decks/good draws.  Any suggestions on which vid to watch next?

Snique

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Re: Hearthstone (and battlenet desktop)
« Reply #52 on: December 26, 2013, 03:41:48 AM »
I've now tested the "does Hearthstone run from a memory stick" and the answer is "yes".  There's a slightly weird interaction with the battle.net launcher but I suspect that's because I had the launcher first and installed Hearthstone afterward. I think if you just got Hearthstone and stuck it on a memory stick it would work properly.  +1 to Blizzard again for that.

Edalia

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Re: Hearthstone (and battlenet desktop)
« Reply #53 on: December 27, 2013, 01:08:47 PM »
I think the comparison is inapt because of the disparate costs.  I'm getting 8 life for 3 mana, plus it's a secret that causes my opponent to have to change his strategy.  All the cards you list are 6+ mana and I agree they're superior to 2xIce Armor but not to 1x.

1) I admit to (purposely) disregarding cost in my post, but Fireball is 4 mana, not 6+. A much smaller difference between FB and IA, and a premium card.

2) Cost would only matter if you had all the cards available and you could only cast one and not the other. Yes, I'm certainly agreeing that a lower curve is better, because in the early game you have access to more cards and are constrained on mana. In the end of a game of HS, though, you are generally in top-decking mode with 8+ mana, so a card that gets you closer to your goal is better than one that merely staves off the inevitable.

In fact, a higher cost in HS is even less of an issue than MTG (where most of the TCG strategy theorycrafting comes from), because getting to 5, 6, 7+ mana in MTG is not an inevitability. In HS, it is, so you can expect to eventually cast your bigger cards.
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Snique

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Re: Hearthstone (and battlenet desktop)
« Reply #54 on: December 27, 2013, 04:05:17 PM »
Interestingly, Ribbo is also down on fireball.  It's rare you need to do 6 damage and I find he's right.  I'm using it on 4 or 5 health minions.  I think I still have one in my  mage deck but not 2.

I also don't know that a card-to-card comparison ignoring mana is apt even at high mana.  If I have a 3 mana defense that allows me also to play a 5-7 mana minion in the same turn. I can't play two of those under most any circumstances so the question is what am I going to do with that 3 mana?  Getting 8 points of life seems pretty reasonable to me.

Edalia

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Re: Hearthstone (and battlenet desktop)
« Reply #55 on: December 28, 2013, 12:03:33 PM »
Ribbo is wrong about Fireball. It doesn't matter if you deal 6 damage to a 4-health minion unless, somehow, you were able to deal 4 damage instead for less mana. That opportunity does not exist for mages. The important thing is that you spent a card to eliminate a minion and you can, in the absence of a minion you need to eliminate, send that 6 damage to the opponent's face.

You're assuming you'd have 2 cards to cast-Ice Armor does not gain life AND draw a card. Cards are a resource, just like mana and life. In Hearthstone, cards are a scarcer resource than mana.

Life gain isn't bad in all cases. You just need to have a reason to play it. If you're holding out to cast a huge bomb, life gain is a tool in the control toolbox. However, in most cases, especially limited/Arena, cards that only gain life are weaker picks, since you can't count on sculpting a control strategy.
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Snique

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Re: Hearthstone (and battlenet desktop)
« Reply #56 on: December 30, 2013, 09:26:20 AM »
Sure, I would generally not take Ice Armor in arenas.  The one time I did the choice was IA, something about murlocs and a card related to weapons.  I'm like, "Dude, I'm playing a mage here - wtf?" and took the ice armor.

I continue to suck at this game, though I'm sucking somewhat less.  I've realized (derp) that you can mouse over the right side and see how many cards you and the other player have left to draw. I am often seeing the other guy run nearly his entire deck while I have 8-12 cards un-drawn.  I tend to lose these games.  These things tend to happen when the other guy is playing a midget deck or my draws are terrible.

Edalia

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Re: Hearthstone (and battlenet desktop)
« Reply #57 on: January 02, 2014, 12:48:44 PM »
Another good advice post I got linked to from another forum: http://www.reddit.com/r/hearthstone/comments/1tzubq/arena_8_win_average_player_offering_some_advice/

The most insightful piece of advice is the "pyramid" style of mana curve. It's not a hard-and fast rule, obviously, but it is a good starting point.

I drafted a mage deck with no sweepers and no polymorphs, but I did grab 2 fireballs and a pyroblast. We'll see how it works out. I picked Questing Adventurer over Blizzard twice, shaping the whole draft around cheaper cards.

[Lots of] Random thoughts:

- I feel like Arena really lends itself to midrange strategies. It's hard to craft aggro or control decks with the limited available choices (i.e. 30 out of 90 cards compared to MTG's 45 out of 276, of which you play 22-23), so every deck has to hedge toward the middle. This feels closer to MTG Sealed Deck than draft, because the field is a lot more unpredictable.

- You also don't see the cards other players get, so it's difficult to have any idea what anyone else has. Right now I can expect a trick or spell because of the small cardpool, but once the cardpool grows it will be difficult to guess what any opponent has. They will likely implement "sets" and other limitations on Arena to keep the massive amount of possibilities down.

- I played 4 rounds of constructed ("Play" in Casual) to ping my dailies. I have an aggro Paladin deck built from mostly base cards and a few commons, and I threw together a Druid deck to bang out 2 dailies at once that skewed more midrange. I decided to play my cards out conservatively, which is not my normal MO-trading life and early-game advantage to conserve cards felt very strong. I was able to bluff having 2 blanks in my hand without trying-my opponents just assumed I had nothing because I wasn't snap-casting what I had mana for.

- In MTG, there's a theory called Stock Mana, which is, quite [over]simply, "the player who spends more mana over the course of a game is significantly more likely to win." I'm not sure this is true in Hearthstone Arena, especially with so many pros advocating for 2/3/4-drops over 6/7/8-drops.

What's more important is the theory of Card Advantage (wayyyyyy to many articles to link, but it's got it's own Wikipedia entry). The idea is that the player who plays more cards over the course of a game is a favorite. Card advantage comes from drawing more cards (Arcane Intellect, Gnomish Engineer), denying your opponent cards (making them discard), getting more than a card's value out of a card (Loot Hoarder trades with an x/2 and draws a card, thus you spending 1 card to get -1 for the opponent and +1 for you for a net of +1 card for you), and negating multiple of your opponent's cards with fewer of your own (sweepers, tough taunters).

HS, like chess and MTG, is a game of limited resources. The strategy is in spending those resources in the most optimal way. Further, you need to spend the most precious or rare of those resources more carefully. In MTG, mana is a precious resource. It's constrained by color, and advancing your mana comes at the cost of card advantage* (drawing a land helps you play a spell, but also reduces the chance of you drawing that spell). In HS, mana is not precious. Gaining mana does not replace a card, getting to higher amounts of mana is a near certainty (barring losing to a bunch of Ice Lances toot suite) rather than a possibility. Cards in HS are more precious than mana, so spending them wisely and accruing advantage will favor you to win.

*Actually, it comes at the cost of virtual card advantage, in some twisted ways, but I'll save that for Card Advantage 201
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Cree

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Re: Hearthstone (and battlenet desktop)
« Reply #58 on: January 02, 2014, 03:05:45 PM »
AI seems so worthless to me. It's basically draw one card since AI is a card.  Seems like you'd rather have one of those draw a card gnomes in your deck instead.   Am I missing something?
Cree (Dr 110) Haikili (Sh 102) Eep (Ma 93) Elisya (Dk 81) Maxine (Pa 85) Urusai (R 90) Gihr (H 83) Nikolievna (Wk 100) Anae (Pr 99) Ressha (Wr 76) Mayu (Mo 36) Adali (DH 110)

Edalia

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Re: Hearthstone (and battlenet desktop)
« Reply #59 on: January 02, 2014, 03:54:21 PM »
AI seems so worthless to me. It's basically draw one card since AI is a card.  Seems like you'd rather have one of those draw a card gnomes in your deck instead.   Am I missing something?

You aren't missing something! I don't think AI is good, or even playable-I was just using it as an example of pure card advantage (spend 1 card, receive 2 cards). I agree that Loot Hoarder is better. It's also usually a 2-for-1, and in the absence of anything for it to kill it can go to the face. good in control, midrange, and aggro!

A 3 mana draw-two is a good card in MTG because you can use it to dig for lands. In HS, there's lots of better cards for 3.
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