Author Topic: Norushen (Siege of Orgrimmar)  (Read 1867 times)

Honorata

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Norushen (Siege of Orgrimmar)
« on: September 12, 2013, 05:12:51 AM »
Just killed this on 25 tonight. This was the first boss in Siege that my team spent serious time wiping on, so this may be a small roadblock for some raid teams.

There were two main points to this fight:
- Communicating with your fellow raiders
- Finding the perfect balance of how many DPS to purify to beat the enrage without overwhelming the raid with damage from adds.

Ultimately, my team ended up 5-healing it to beat the enrage. We were only able to purify about half the DPS. I'm not sure how this will scale for 10m, but it's possible some teams may need to 2-heal it to beat the encounter.

Here's some stuff we did:
- Prioritized purifying healers and tanks early in the fight. (We assigned a specific orb as a tank only orb. As there are only two orbs in 10m I'm not sure how possible this will be for 10m teams.) Only a few DPS purified very early. We sent in more DPS to purify as the fight went along. Healers and tanks do not spawn adds in the normal realm when they purify, but DPS do.
- Healers who deal damage to heal (disc, mistweaver) should be purified first of the healers so their healing toolkit isn't restricted by the corruption debuff.
- DPS doing their challenge to purify themselves may need to throttle DPS to control the amount of adds in the normal realm. They will want to make sure it's safe to send another of the large adds into the normal realm before doing so.
- If you plan to send two DPS into their challenge at the same time, have them kill their adds in opposite order (one kills smalls first, one kills big first) so that you do not have two large adds up at the same time.
- Small adds should be stunned/interrupted and their channel blocked with raiders' bodies to prevent them from buffing the boss too much.
- Large adds should be collected by the tank and cleaved by the DPS. These are also stunnable. MD/tricks is really nice for these, as these mobs getting loose and eating healers/DPS was the cause of several of our wipes.
- After the boss reaches 50% health, we mostly stopped sending in DPS to purify (I believe we sent one at 40-30%). At this point, the only people using orbs should be tanks in danger of going over 75% corruption.
- We used lust/hero/time warp/whatever at 50%, which means the adds the boss spawns at 50% and 40% came very close together. Be prepared with raid CDs for lust.
« Last Edit: September 12, 2013, 05:21:28 AM by Honorata »
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Snique

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Re: Norushen (Siege of Orgrimmar)
« Reply #1 on: September 12, 2013, 06:23:49 AM »
How do you deal with the frost pulses (and how can you tell when they're happening/about to happen)?  DBM warns on large add spawn (10% health markers) but nothing seems to let you know the frost pulse is happening except OMFGHEALTHBARSDROPPING!

Marco

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Re: Norushen (Siege of Orgrimmar)
« Reply #2 on: September 12, 2013, 10:14:20 AM »
The frost pulses happen every three seconds, so it would be pointless to have a warning.  Their damage increases as the amalgam loses health, and can also increase as the amalgam gets buffed by the little adds.  Try to keep the raid mostly stacked for more efficient healing, but also try to limit how many buffs the amalgam gets from small adds.  This can be done by (1) interrupting the adds, (2) having people stand in front of the adds (be aware that players will take 100K damage each time they intercept an expelled corruption), and (3) keeping up with the adds so that the buff stack drops off when he does get them (the buff lasts 15 seconds and gives +5% damage to the boss per stack).

We got the amalgam to 15% at the berserk timer on our best pull in 10-normal.  We were three-healing and getting everyone purified.  I have heard on forums that it's better to purify fewer DPS, so I am thinking of doing only three DPS.

Our disc priest reported finishing the challenge (i.e. killing the add), but having the game react as if she had failed (her corruption was not cleared, and we got an extra big add).  This was reported as bug in the PTR, so that's possibly a bug that went live.  Simply not purifying disc priests should be a reasonable workaround.

Honorata

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Re: Norushen (Siege of Orgrimmar)
« Reply #3 on: September 12, 2013, 12:38:55 PM »
Our disc priest reported finishing the challenge (i.e. killing the add), but having the game react as if she had failed (her corruption was not cleared, and we got an extra big add).  This was reported as bug in the PTR, so that's possibly a bug that went live.  Simply not purifying disc priests should be a reasonable workaround.

Our disc priest said she was sometimes running into the same thing. We were thinking it may have something to do with whether or not she got the killing blow on her add, or what percentage of that mob's health she damaged, but it was hard for us to tell.

edit ok i talked to our disc and she said she saw this on some of our early pulls, and on later pulls was doing more actual heal-spells healing in the challenge realm instead of smiting and it seemed to not cause the problem.
« Last Edit: September 12, 2013, 09:56:51 PM by Honorata »
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Snique

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Re: Norushen (Siege of Orgrimmar)
« Reply #4 on: September 13, 2013, 06:33:37 AM »
Speaking of disc priests does anyone know how a priest's corruption level interacts with Penance?  (Likely Fistweavers have similar questions but I don't know that class at all.)

Snique

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Re: Norushen (Siege of Orgrimmar)
« Reply #5 on: October 28, 2013, 06:50:38 AM »
Maybe we just suck at DPS?  We can't seem to get this guy down, with all our attempts ending around 7-12% either with the enrage timer or too much damage going out (mostly seems to be the icy pulses) as his health drops. Our top DPS is usually over 200, but our last person through the portal is having trouble breaking 100.

We have stopped sending tanks in. We send healer-DPS, healer-DPS, healer-DPS, DPS, DPS.  Usually the 5th DPS gets done with the scenario around 45% health and we hit heroism as soon as they come out.

We have healers picking up the purple poo so DPS are not losing damage to that after they've gone through the cleanse.  Healing is a little rough when we're 2-healing it early, but we use cooldowns to get over that. The middle span of like 75% health to 45% health goes pretty smoothly (like, we're avoiding the cutter and picking up poo quickly) but we can't seem to bring this home.

Any tips appreciated.

Marco

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Re: Norushen (Siege of Orgrimmar)
« Reply #6 on: October 28, 2013, 07:12:51 AM »
You might try sending in only your top three DPS.  When a DPS goes in, they get more damage output for the rest of the fight, but they also create adds, which lowers everyone else's DPS output for a bit.  (Yes, DPS on adds is mirrored to the boss, but target switching is really inefficient for average players.)  This may wind up being a wash on your race against the berserk timer, but you'll probably also lose fewer pulls to dealing with the fourth and fifth waves of adds.

Sending in tanks early is also "free" DPS because it doesn't create adds, and can be significant in 10s.  But only if your tanks can survive the challenge (which I'm guessing is why you stopped) and only if the other tank can lock down big adds while tanking the boss.  We only send in one tank, but we'd probably send in both if we still had issues with the berserk.

For surviving the tank challenge, be aware that Burst of Corruption is not avoidable (contrary to what icy-veins says), so you should just focus on avoiding Titanic Smash, interrupting Hurl Corruption, and using your active mitigation and cooldowns.  Trying fruitlessly to avoid Burst of Corruption makes it much more likely that you'll screw up one of the two avoidable attacks.

Brynndolin

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Re: Norushen (Siege of Orgrimmar)
« Reply #7 on: October 28, 2013, 09:20:13 AM »
BCP puts the top two DPS in first. We kind of put feelings aside when we decided we wanted to get the fight down. You'll get a lot of adds fast when this happens (have one person start with the big add and the other start with the little adds in the other realm to balance things out). Then, we send in the tank who does the most damage and the third top DPS. Last, we send the last tank and a healer. No one goes in after that. The people who go it focus on the boss afterwards, and the people who never go in always have primary responsibility for adds. If adds start being out of control, we ask one of the ranged who went in to help (the other two people tend to be melee for us anyway, which isn't efficient in terms of running down adds).

The only people who pick up the purple balls are folks who are getting ready to enter and then healers - we never comprised anyone's DPS who could pump out good numbers.

Snique

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Re: Norushen (Siege of Orgrimmar)
« Reply #8 on: October 28, 2013, 12:00:56 PM »
We're definitely sending DPS in order of production (though it can be hard to meter on a given night.  Both immerseus and protectors frell with standard DPS metrics).

We stopped sending tanks because untanked big adds were wiping out DPS or OOMing healers keeping up with the damage.  None of our tanks are big damage-dealers so cleansing them hasn't been significant for us.

I'm trying to math out the poo drops.  You get 9 big adds for the 10% health marks, double for 40/30/20/10 for a total of 13, right?  Plus one per DPS who goes through so with 3 DPS that's 16 poo to pick up.  Three healers could get that I guess, if cleansed after the first one, but just barely.

I also can't work out how it's not a DPS loss to keep 2 DPS out. You have fewer adds, which means less full-throttle DPS put on the boss, right?  But you keep them in the fight for that additional 45 seconds or so?

I had been thinking we might pair up the tail end DPS, but pairing them at the front makes the most sense. We should have enough survival cooldowns.

jsoh

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Re: Norushen (Siege of Orgrimmar)
« Reply #9 on: October 28, 2013, 12:16:15 PM »
You get 9 big adds for the 10% health marks, double for 40/30/20/10 for a total of 13, right?  Plus one per DPS who goes through so with 3 DPS that's 16 poo to pick up.  Three healers could get that I guess, if cleansed after the first one, but just barely.

No.

The boss doesn't spawn adds itself at 10% marks until 50% health. Assuming orb teams of

healer/dps
healer/dps
healer/dps
dps
dps

then you'll have a grand total of 10 large adds and resultant poop orbs - 5 from dps in the alternate realm, 5 from the boss.

Relative to TRR or BCP, you're generating 2 additional large adds. As Marco points out, while the damage done to the adds is transferred to the boss, you may be incurring larger penalties due to target switching than you'd gain from sending in the last 2 DPS. 2 less large adds also helps you in terms of less healer stress/pickup fails.

The DPS who aren't buffed still do 100% of DPS on the adds (both large and small) so they can be used to help burst down the adds from 50% downwards.

Snique

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Re: Norushen (Siege of Orgrimmar)
« Reply #10 on: October 29, 2013, 05:28:35 AM »
The boss doesn't spawn adds itself at 10% marks until 50% health.

This confuses me.  We get a big add almost immediately after engaging - I did not think that was from our DPSer, but perhaps it was.

The DPS who aren't buffed still do 100% of DPS on the adds (both large and small) so they can be used to help burst down the adds from 50% downwards.

However, with no one going in, these adds are few and far between (comparitively).  This seems like a net DPS loss, though I'm not good enough to spreadsheet it out.  Roughly, the boss loses 2-3% of its health while an add is up. That seems like non-cleansed DPS would be doing half damage for 70% of the time.

All of this aside, we killed it on 10 last night.  Thanks to everyone who provided suggestions.  We changed our scenario rotation to be:
dps-dps
healer-dps
healer-dps
healer-dps

I think we had about 14-15 seconds left before enrage and 2 people dead when it went down.

(Then we one-shotted Sha; why Blizzard is unable to scale boss challenges appropriately remains one of the mysteries of the universe.)

Marco

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Re: Norushen (Siege of Orgrimmar)
« Reply #11 on: October 29, 2013, 05:52:28 AM »
This confuses me.  We get a big add almost immediately after engaging - I did not think that was from our DPSer, but perhaps it was.
It's almost certainly from your DPSer.  You can go in right away and the big add dies very quickly if you target it first.

Each DPS you send in generates one big add and three small ones (four small ones if the DPS going in ate a purple orb first, which isn't ideal).  This creates a healing challenge--mild at first, more severe later on in the fight as the background AOE damage increases.  Also, people have to divert and kill those adds.  Damage done to the adds is mirrored to the boss, but it takes time to switch targets, the adds aren't fully debuffed like the boss is, overdamage done to the adds is lost (along with casts that never complete because the add dies mid-cast), and I think purified people don't get the +25% damage bonus against adds.  So in general, sending a DPS in has five consequences:

- You lose that person's DPS for 30-60 seconds while they do the challenge
- Adds are generated, creating a healing challenge
- Any DPS who diverts to kill the generated adds loses DPS because of target switching
+ Non-purified DPS get to do unpenalized damage (200% of initial DPS) to the adds, which is mirrored to the boss
+ The newly purified DPS does bonus damage (250% of initial DPS) to the boss for the rest of the fight

The net consequence for the first DPS to go in is unquestionably positive.  As later DPS go in, the net consequence tends more towards neutral or negative, because more of the people killing the adds were already purified and are therefore losing more of their DPS.  Mathing this out isn't feasible, but my sense is that for most groups, the fourth DPS to go in is a wash and the fifth is a net negative.

Honorata

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Re: Norushen (Siege of Orgrimmar)
« Reply #12 on: October 30, 2013, 03:30:16 AM »
Heroic
This is basically just a gear check. Boss is pretty much the same, just more health/things hit harder.

Tons of orbs are up at the beginning so people can go do their test pretty much whenever they want.

We cleansed all DPS (Best DPS to worst DPS), and only atonement style healers. People set to go into do their test would help with orbs from big adds.

DPS check was very tight for our group. (Killed him with ~15s left to enrage.)
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