Author Topic: Tortos  (Read 5517 times)

Snique

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Re: Tortos
« Reply #30 on: June 17, 2013, 06:48:22 AM »
So apparently I misunderstand and didn't convey the changes well to my group as I got crit by the Wall of Whining.  Healers insist there is NO WAY this fight can be 2-healed.  (I note that he said the same thing about Horridon, but he's my best healer so..)

DPS tried moving as a group and as a result died as a group.  Now I'm RF-heal-tanking the bats and I find I can't get from left to right because there are goddamn blue circles all the way across the room due to DPS scattering.

The dungeon journal says that the splash range on the circles is 20 yards, which motivates people to move the hell across the room as soon as a blue circle spawns under them except then we get later blue circles over there.  How the heck do you get people to stay in a group when it means 447 blue circles appear and OMG PANIC RUNAWAY sets in?

Healing: grar.  Just... grar.  I use DL approximately never.  Will work on that.  Tried reglyphing for double HOP but if I HOP myself then either the bats go every which way or the OT has them anyway and HOP isn't necessary.  HOP doesn't block rockfall (see above, nature damage) so I'm not sure what the value here is.

Anyone want to watch us do a couple of attempts tonight (Monday) and point and laugh?  err... make useful suggestions?

Marco

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Re: Tortos
« Reply #31 on: June 17, 2013, 06:59:17 AM »
So apparently I misunderstand and didn't convey the changes well to my group as I got crit by the Wall of Whining.  Healers insist there is NO WAY this fight can be 2-healed.

Well, I have seen a group get its first kill with three healers.  It took about eight and a half minutes.  The berserk timer is 13 minutes, so as long as you can make *some* progress on the turtle, you'll win if you live long enough.  But you'll need to scrape up at least enough DPS to keep up with shells and bats, which is a lot easier with six DPS than with five.  A long fight is also more opportunities for the kicker to screw up and wipe the raid.

Quote
The dungeon journal says that the splash range on the circles is 20 yards, which motivates people to move the hell across the room as soon as a blue circle spawns under them except then we get later blue circles over there.  How the heck do you get people to stay in a group when it means 447 blue circles appear and OMG PANIC RUNAWAY sets in?
Rockfalls have a long range, but they are also slow to go off.  If you move slowly across the room, you should still be able to be out of range of many of the rockfalls.  And if a rockfall appears in from of your path, you have time to move through it (or around it, if you're that paranoid) without taking a direct hit.

You probably don't want to be tightly grouped; it's better to be distributed front to back somewhat, to get some benefit from longer diagonals and to distribute the rockfalls a bit.  However, people too far in back may be out of healing range, which is usually fatal.  We sometimes put a raid marker down to mean "don't go behind here for very long because we can't heal you."

Andraax

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Re: Tortos
« Reply #32 on: June 17, 2013, 07:32:17 AM »
The dungeon journal says that the splash range on the circles is 20 yards, which motivates people to move the hell across the room as soon as a blue circle spawns under them except then we get later blue circles over there.  How the heck do you get people to stay in a group when it means 447 blue circles appear and OMG PANIC RUNAWAY sets in?

Anyone want to watch us do a couple of attempts tonight (Monday) and point and laugh?  err... make useful suggestions?

Yeah, the trick is that the group needs to move just enough to get out of the circles, but not all the way across the room.  You have to be disciplined enough that you're causing a trail of splashes to form, not distinct blotches, as it were.  A crude diagram:


       |                  Tortos                  |
       |                                            |
       |                                            |
       |                                            |
       | 1         2            3           4    |
       |   1        2          3             4   |
       |  1        2            3           4    |
       |   1        2          3             4   |
       |  1        2            3           4    |
       |                                            |
       |                                            |
       |                                            |
       |                                            |
Water edge


Ranged and healers start at the 1 positions; they're a bit staggered and spread out front to back (but not hugely).  When the serious rockfalls start, people move to the 2 positions, then onwards to 3 and 4, but only when circles appear.  Occasionally, someone may need to move forward or back somewhat to adjust for turtles, etc, but the idea is that you end at 4 after the rockfalls are done and just reverse things next cycle.

Admittedly, this fight is really hard on the healers.  You may want 2.5 or 3 healers in your earlier tries, but as Marco says, you'll struggle to get enough DPS to finish things.

-Andraax

jsoh

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Re: Tortos
« Reply #33 on: June 17, 2013, 07:53:22 AM »
The value of HoP'ing yourself is twofold:

1. You dont take damage from the stomp. This is valuable in of it self, as a) you have a much larger buffer of health from rockfall splash damage and b) you and other healers dont have to blow mana and sanity healing another person.

2. You dont get stunned. Which means you can have a heal queue'd up to go off on the far side of the stomp, and not have it be interrupted.

If you're hitting HoP and bats scatter then I submit to you that something is going seriously wrong with the bats on 2 different levels; the previously mentioned "bats shouldnt be alive at stomp" one, plus "bat tank should have pulled them all off of you well before the need to hit HoP".

As Marco mentions, sometimes I put a flare near the back of the room, and solemnly inform people that if they cross that line, they're welcome to use all the self-healing they have to keep themselves alive because I sure as heck wont be doing it.

Healers whine. Its the nature of healers - its how you know they're still alive.

The compromise (as Andraax alludes to)  is to have something like a disco priest in lolsmite mode or a fistweaving monk. However, while that will increase your HPS relative to 2 heal/6 dps, it will reduce your dps relative to the same configuration. If your problem is already that you cannot make the dps checks, then its not clear how dropping raid dps will help.

Snique

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Re: Tortos
« Reply #34 on: June 17, 2013, 11:42:17 AM »
Hmm.  I hadn't thought that the self-HOP was all that useful for the stomp.  I miss one GCD at most.  The damage block is probably worth it, though.

Per Andraax's diagram - that would imply that the distance water-to-water is 60 yds, which I don't think it is.  Otherwise everyone will be taking the splash damage from the rockfall at 1 when standing at 2, from 2 at 3 and so on, which is what happened to us the first couple tries.

We did try putting a backward boundary on peoples' movement.  I get the impression that the turtles target people since we seemed to get a lot of turtles going side-to-side where before they'd gone front-to-back.

Edalia

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Re: Tortos
« Reply #35 on: June 17, 2013, 11:46:40 AM »
Per Andraax's diagram - that would imply that the distance water-to-water is 60 yds, which I don't think it is.  Otherwise everyone will be taking the splash damage from the rockfall at 1 when standing at 2, from 2 at 3 and so on, which is what happened to us the first couple tries.

You don't wait for the first rockfalls to hit necessarily, just for the next rockfall to show up. You should be far enough away that you won't get killed.
o/\o

Andraax

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Re: Tortos
« Reply #36 on: June 17, 2013, 11:50:04 AM »
Per Andraax's diagram - that would imply that the distance water-to-water is 60 yds, which I don't think it is.  Otherwise everyone will be taking the splash damage from the rockfall at 1 when standing at 2, from 2 at 3 and so on, which is what happened to us the first couple tries.

It's not 60 yards across, but you're not 20 yards from the circle boundary, more like 5.  Yes, you eat the splash damage, but it's not that much more when you're 5 yards away as opposed to 20.  People need to mitigate just enough damage that the healers can keep them up.

-Andraax

Marco

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Re: Tortos
« Reply #37 on: June 17, 2013, 11:57:05 AM »
Rockfall damage comes in two sizes: in the circle (usually instant death) and within 20 yards.  If you're outside of the circle but within 20 yards, you take the same amount of damage whether you're right next to the circle or far from it.

The key bit about moving slowly from left to right is that rockfalls take a significant amount of time to land.  You don't need to be moving at full speed to get 20 yards away in five seconds, and you don't need to get away from every single rockfall, only some of them.

So, looking that the diagram, the direct distance from 1 to 2 is probably only 8-10 yards.  But by the time the rockfalls at 1 land, you have moved to 3, and are out of range of most of the rockfalls at 1 if not all of them.

HeidiB

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Re: Tortos
« Reply #38 on: June 17, 2013, 01:21:54 PM »
So apparently I misunderstand and didn't convey the changes well to my group as I got crit by the Wall of Whining.  Healers insist there is NO WAY this fight can be 2-healed.  (I note that he said the same thing about Horridon, but he's my best healer so..)

I had this reaction to Council.  What's probably happening is that the raid is taking a lot of avoidable damage.  Until you get over that, you can't 2-heal the fight.  But when you try 3-healing the fight, everything takes longer and the healers oom and die (or the bats don't die and the tank explodes, or you don't have turtle shells when you need them, or...)

I'd suggest you spin what you're doing now as practice rather than risk implying that you expect your healers to be able to handle the current damage load.

Snique

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Re: Tortos
« Reply #39 on: June 18, 2013, 06:22:27 AM »
So.  Another night of fail to move.  It's clear that I don't understand how we're supposed to move and thus cannot convey it to a group of cranky DPS who do not want to be standing next to rock falls.  We counted (well Recount-ed) a string of 13 splashes on two different characters in two sequential attempts and that was that.  Nobody wants to be the guy who takes 13 splashes.

Yes, some people are taking some avoidable damage, but the only way to avoid more of the damage appears to be to let people run about dodging as needed.  Late in the night someone suggested a different arrangement that might give us a way to do that.  Basically we've got the two tanks, our melee DPS and our RF-healadin hopping left side to right side on Tortos and the ranged and other healers spread out in an arc about 30 yards back.  They get to dodge as they please though sometimes they're out of my range.  Next time we'll use the "go behind this marker and you're self-healing" mark as well.

I switched how I'm using Prism and am trying more DL heals for HP though that's pushing my overheal way up.

It feels like thrashing rather than progress, but we'll see.

Tweed

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Re: Tortos
« Reply #40 on: June 18, 2013, 07:57:55 AM »
So.  Another night of fail to move.  It's clear that I don't understand how we're supposed to move and thus cannot convey it to a group of cranky DPS who do not want to be standing next to rock falls.  We counted (well Recount-ed) a string of 13 splashes on two different characters in two sequential attempts and that was that.  Nobody wants to be the guy who takes 13 splashes.

I don't understand how that's possible. Now, I hated the Tortos fight: I think it was (and is) overtuned for its placement in the boss hierarchy, I think it's needlessly punishing for non-mobile dps (like mages, moonkins), and is generally a visual clusterfuck of a fight.

BUT, the deal with splashes is just that you have all the ranged on one side (like, far left), you get a rockfall, circles appear on the ground, people move generally to the middle, maybe cast one or two GCDs, circles appear on the ground again, people move to the far right, no more circles appear (or if any do, they're just one or two and people stand clear of them). That's the mechanic.

HeidiB

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Re: Tortos
« Reply #41 on: June 18, 2013, 09:35:37 AM »
We counted (well Recount-ed) a string of 13 splashes on two different characters in two sequential attempts and that was that.
Are you spreading out?  I forgot to mention that we spread out.

Snique

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Re: Tortos
« Reply #42 on: June 19, 2013, 05:46:40 AM »
I don't understand how that's possible.

Neither do I.  But it happened to two separate people in two attempts in a row, one of whom was me. So unless Recount is completely borked (entirely possible I agree) then I was hit by 13 splashes in a row.

Quote
BUT, the deal with splashes is just that you have all the ranged on one side (like, far left), you get a rockfall, circles appear on the ground, people move generally to the middle, maybe cast one or two GCDs, circles appear on the ground again, people move to the far right, no more circles appear (or if any do, they're just one or two and people stand clear of them). That's the mechanic.

Let's assume that people actually are there (which they aren't, because turtles target people and you have to dodge them).  If you drop a circle on the left then your choices appear to be:

1. Move to the middle and be in splash range, or
2. Move far enough away that you're out of splash range but get hit by the second splash as the next set of circles appears now in the middle or on the right half of the field.

As I've said, it's pretty clear I don't understand this movement well enough to convey it and I would welcome the presence of anyone who has done this fight and would be willing to watch us flail and explain it better than I can.

Tweed

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Re: Tortos
« Reply #43 on: June 19, 2013, 06:16:24 AM »
Let's assume that people actually are there (which they aren't, because turtles target people and you have to dodge them).  If you drop a circle on the left then your choices appear to be:

1. Move to the middle and be in splash range, or
2. Move far enough away that you're out of splash range but get hit by the second splash as the next set of circles appears now in the middle or on the right half of the field.

People are going to take splash damage. It's pretty much unavoidable. There are too many rockfalls, and the room is small, so people are going to get tagged. The goal with the left-to-right migration isn't for everyone to completely avoid the splash damage. The goal is for everyone to completely avoid finding themselves standing in the circle where the rocks fall, or stuck between four rock falls so that they take four sources of splash damage.  Migrating slowly from left, to middle, then to right ensures that the circles stay generally grouped up, so that people have a clear area to stand in. But even in that clear area, everyone's going to take some splash damage.

The rockfall phases are healing pressure points where the raid is taking raid-wide damage. People should be using personal mitigation and healing CDs. I only play a mage, but I know Ice Barrier is up and available during every rockfall, which mitigates something like 100k damage. During times that I've been stupid and not moved properly, I've just Ice Blocked through the phase. I'm sure other classes have similar CDs they can use.

Snique

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Re: Tortos
« Reply #44 on: July 02, 2013, 06:22:53 AM »
We finally killed this bastich last night.  Thanks to everyone who helped out.  We did 3-heal it, but went with some pretty stompin' DPS.

The "plan" at the end was "run around like headless chickens and try not to get decimated".

On a more serious note, I found that it helped for me to stop using LOD and use EF.  With people in unpredictable places LOD would often hit too few people (even with the glyph) and its heal-per-person wasn't that great (30-40k normal 60-80k on a crit).  Since a single splash is 60k that would wipe out the healing effect of an LOD crit so it appeared like healthbars weren't moving.  Even though EF only hits one person it's a BIG honkin heal and they'd tend to stay up even if they immediately took another splash.  So immediately after stomp I'd do Prism/EF/Shock/EF (assuming I had correctly banked 5 HP).

We'll see again on Sunday if this was a fluke or if we've finally figured out the fight.