Author Topic: Tortos  (Read 5358 times)

Marco

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Tortos
« on: March 31, 2013, 08:45:11 AM »
http://www.icy-veins.com/tortos-detailed-strategy-wow
http://www.tankspot.com/showthread.php?80863-Throne-of-Thunder-Tortos
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uRWLRegvc2c

The basic mechanics of this fight are pretty simple: avoid rockfalls; try to dodge whirl turtles; tank and kill bats; keep the bat tank above 350K health.

The more strategic part of this fight involves kicking turtles.  You must use one turtle to interrupt each stone breath, but you want to use any remaining turtles for the DPS debuff on adds.  Shells can be kicked through the bats where they are tanked, or they can be kicked at Tortos's head right after he casts Call of Tortos to debuff the turtles.

Early in the fight, shells are limited, so you have to be careful.  Going by DBM, you should expect roughly:

0:20  Turtles 1-3
0:45  Breath #1, bats #1
1:20  Turtles 4-6
1:30  Breath #2, bats #2
2:15  Breath #3, bats #3
2:20  Turtles 7-9
3:00  Breath #4, bats #4
3:20  Turtles 10-12
3:45  Breath #5, bats #5
...

Bats arrive shortly after each breath, although they get more out of sync as the fight goes on.  It takes 15-20 seconds to kill the first turtle after the turtles are triggered (since they don't even come out right away), so you'll need a shell from the first set of turtles to interrupt the second breath.  So one possible starting strategy is:

Shell 1: Breath #1
Shell 2: Bats #1
Shell 3: Breath #2
Shell 4: Bats #2
Shell 5: Breath #3
Shell 6: Turtles 7-9 and bats #3
Shell 7: Breath #4
Shell 8: Bats #4
Shell 9: Turtles 10-12 or breath #5

and decide on the fly from there.  Because breaths come more often than turtles, you won't be able to debuff every set of bats *and* every set of turtles, but you should be able to get all the bats and many of the turtles.  Alternatively, you could give up on debuffing turtles and just use extra shells on the boss during quiet moments, if you have enough DPS to have quiet moments.
« Last Edit: March 31, 2013, 08:27:10 PM by Marco »

Edalia

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Re: Tortos
« Reply #1 on: March 31, 2013, 08:24:07 PM »
Huh, I didn't realize 305k was a static threshold for Drain the Weak. Maybe that makes non-monks better choices for bat tanks, since monks basically have 520k HP with a stam flask...
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Nosleep

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Re: Tortos
« Reply #2 on: April 01, 2013, 05:52:55 AM »
That's interesting. It also explains what I saw when I was tanking the bats in LFR. I'd be fine, and then fairly abruptly dead. I thought it was an overwhelming number of bats, and it was, but it was also that my health must have dipped under the magic number and all of the Bats started doing Drain on me at once. Not sure how that might change how I play, but certainly interesting.

Marco

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Re: Tortos
« Reply #3 on: April 01, 2013, 06:55:15 AM »
Drain the Weak doesn't do a lot of damage.  It just allows the bats to heal.

However, if the bats aren't dead before Cave Stomp, you take a bunch of damage and lose avoidance for a couple of seconds, plus an interruption in the flow of incoming heals, and that's definitely dangerous.  The main DPS check in this fight is being able to kill each group of bats before the next cave stomp.

HeidiB

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Re: Tortos
« Reply #4 on: April 01, 2013, 02:46:46 PM »
However, if the bats aren't dead before Cave Stomp, you take a bunch of damage and lose avoidance for a couple of seconds, plus an interruption in the flow of incoming heals, and that's definitely dangerous.
In case the understatement isn't clear here, allow me to translate:

"definitely dangerous" = "will turn you into a bloody spot on the floor unless you and your healers are at or above ilevel 510".

Leahnidas

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Re: Tortos
« Reply #5 on: April 04, 2013, 09:17:07 AM »
Something to note that is very crucial: Rockfall contains splash damage. If you stand in the blue circle, you are all but guaranteed an insta-death but even standing near them does a fair amount of damage. This is particularly problematic in 25 where your space is limited so we have the melee have a set meeting spot that we spread out from after Cave Stomp and then re-group so that the tank can bring us bats to kill. In a 10s group that is light on melee, getting damage on the boss can be problematic since ranged is then responsible for killing turtles, bats, and the boss and splash damage tends to be lighter that way.

Raylen

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Re: Tortos
« Reply #6 on: May 09, 2013, 01:40:02 PM »
Now from the extremely obscure department ...

One interesting thing, possibly a bug, I recently read about is an interaction between Ancestral Guidance and Drain the Weak.

http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/8796269786

What seems to be happening is that Drain the Weak is being counted as a shaman's healing for AG and being duplicated.  In the above thread are reports ticks healing for around 1 million.  Of course much of that is overheal and there's a requirement than the shaman be tanking a bat or two at least temporarily.

Really it just looks like a gimmick albeit one with really big green numbers.

One actual strategy I read about is using a monk tank to kite All Ze Bats, forever.  It obviously requires a number of timed stuns and is quite a bit trickier to pull off than the standard strat.

Edalia

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Re: Tortos
« Reply #7 on: May 10, 2013, 12:40:00 PM »
Monk kiting is extremely tricky. Just being able to see where the bats are coming from before they eat a healer is hard enough.
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Kharvek

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Re: Tortos
« Reply #8 on: May 10, 2013, 03:03:17 PM »
BCP tried the monk kiting strat and we even tried it in an LFR once.

It's tricky but when it works, it works really well.  It's allowing us to get good practice on interrupting the breath and the damage we do to the boss is pretty heavy.

However....when it fucks up?  It fucks up hard.  The instant the bats come at a bad place and Frank can't pounce immediately it's almost a complete fail.  If Frank also gets eaten by the bats, instant wipe.  So it's a strat with *zero* room for error, but when it's working it works really well.  The trick is sustaining it for a fight.  We almost did it on LFR and in 10-man...the fight seems way shorter than LFR using this strat so it *could* be viable.  At the very least it's good to focus on elements of learning to remove the bat element.

Snique

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Re: Tortos
« Reply #9 on: June 11, 2013, 06:59:46 AM »
Couple of quick questions, as we've finally gotten to this guy.

OMFG levels of damage.  People say it's two-healable though.  Really?

We're using heroism at the start when everyone can blast away on Tortos and carry through that burst into getting the first turtle down.  We sometimes miss by 1-2 seconds though. Is it just "do more damage" and we get through this without heroism, or is there some trick we're missing?

We seem to have a fail point where sooner or later bats are alive when the stomp happens and the OT goes splodey (that's a technical term). Any suggestions?  Basically we're peeling all the DPS off to get those bats down in time, except maybe one melee who stays on Tortos.  We're also letting the OT hold the pack wherever it gathers, which is usually on me (palahealer) more or less center-center in the room.  This lets us sometimes kick a shell through the bat pack and into Tortos or even just kick through the bats. Eventually we run out of shells, though, and that is usually followed by bats being up during a stomp and see above.

We also seem to have trouble with chained rockfalls.  One person gets targeted by 5 or 6 of them and dies.  Even if you dodge the whole thing that's still 5 or 6 x 50k-70k of splash damage (unavoidable?) which is a lot of pain.  If you happen to intersect a whirl while running from that it's usually game over.

We've gotten him to 34% once, but more commonly we die with Tortos at 50-65% which makes me feel like we're missing something.  DPS are all pretty solidly north of 100k, which isn't hard with the AOEs.

jsoh

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Re: Tortos
« Reply #10 on: June 11, 2013, 07:42:11 AM »
All TRR kills that I've been a part of have been 2-healed. We likely have enough DPS now that its not strictly necessary, but we keep doing whats successful.

If your failure points are one (or both) of:

* First whirl turtle doesnt die before first breath attack
* Bats still alive at next stomp

then you have a "not enough DPS" problem. The bat issue can be helped by kicking shells through the bat group, but not if it means you run out of shells. If you're particularly adept, you can (on the 2nd and later waves) kick a shell right through the newly spawning whirl turtles. Doesnt help with getting the first one down tho.

I assume you're letting DBM mark the turtles, so everyone knows which one to focus on?

Both TRR and BCP tend to tank the bats right next to Tortos so melee/tanks can splash damage. Is there a reason that you're staying in the dead centre?

There is an RNG aspect to the rockfalls, and you can (and will) get screwed sometimes by getting hemmed in. You can partially mitigate this by using any personal cool downs - but I dont believe we have a plan for that other than "be luckier next time" or "make Apert save you. Again".

Tweed

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Re: Tortos
« Reply #11 on: June 11, 2013, 08:08:10 AM »
Also, you should save Time Warp for the burn phase when he hits 20 or 25 percent.  At that point he's summoning whirling turtles constantly and they're flying around the room, so the goal is just to burn him down as fast as you can before the raid is overwhelmed by spinning turtle-y death.

Edalia

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Re: Tortos
« Reply #12 on: June 11, 2013, 08:17:26 AM »
As Apert said, we tank bats by the feet. We tried kiting, but it was too prone to failure without the Heroic Crystal Shield.

When I tank bats:

- Grace heals with RF and a star on her head so I know where they're going, and I pick them up with Dizzying Haze
- I bring them to Tortos' feet and AoE, getting splashes, cleaves, and some turtle shells
- If bats are up and stomp is being cast, I use my AoE stun so while I'm stunned at least they aren't hitting me
- If no stun is available, I use a big CD

You can adapt these to most, if not all tank styles. What class is your OT? Even though Drain the Weak has a health threshold and my monk has less health than our paladin, I do bats because of more tricks and faster mobile pickups.

The splash from high-vengeance tank AoE is significant-I did 6% of his health in damage on our kill, mostly just splash.

How are you moving for rockfalls? We move as a group after the quake to the opposite side of the room, and each rockfall follows behind. That way there's no pile of 5 or 6 in any one area that anyone's near (hopefully).
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ghoselle

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Re: Tortos
« Reply #13 on: June 11, 2013, 08:40:40 AM »
Looking at our first kill, we did it with 2 healers and it sounds like less dps than you have.  I believe our normal strategy for the bats is to have 2-3 dps and the tank kill them -- usually the melee since they tend to have good cleaving damage.  The OT definitely goes splody if a stomp happens while there are a bunch of bats alive.  If you have a tank who does better at dps, put them on the bats.

There is some tactical movement done to help mitigate the rockfalls by the ranged/healers.  But as a tank, I'm not real clear on the details enough to explain.  My impression is that people gather on one side of the room, and when rockfalls start move to the other side of the room fast enough not to get hit, but slow enough that they don't cause rockfalls to hit the other side.

We do a burn at the end, using heroism then.  I believe the burn starts after we kill a set of bats and when Tortos is below ~20-25%-ish health.  During the burn we more or less ignore bats & shells, relying on that Tortos will die before the bats kill everyone.  Part of the point of the burn is that as the fight goes on, the turtles spawn more quickly.  So the burn is to get us through that hardest part faster.

Marco

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Re: Tortos
« Reply #14 on: June 11, 2013, 08:47:58 AM »
When TRR got to Tortos, we did not have the DPS to three-heal the fight.  Two-healing was not easy for us at all, but it was at least possible.  There are three major sources of damage which can potentially be reduced to make the healing more manageable:

1. Snapping Bite on the Tortos tank.  Make sure the tank has active mitigation up for each one.  Avoid using a druid on Tortos if possible since their active mitigation is dodge.

2. The bats on the bat tank.  The bat tank can use a stamina flask to keep above 350K for longer and avoid Drain the Weak.  Also, the less attention the bat tank has to pay to picking up the bats, the more attention they can pay to keeping up active mitigation.  A paladin healer running righteous fury can make bat pickups easier.  Killing all or more of the bats before the next cave stomp also helps a great deal.

3. Cave stomps.  We try to have the raid mostly on one half of the room when cave stomp goes off, and then move slowly towards the other side of the room as rockfalls draw in.  Don't move quickly or you'll just drop a bunch of rockfalls on the other half.  Remember that rockfalls take about five seconds to go off after the target circle draws; if one appears to your right, it's entirely reasonable to run through it rather than letting yourself get pushed to the left if that's not the direction you want to go in.  Your goal is not to take zero secondary rockfall hits, but to minimize the number of them on the raid as a whole.

If anyone takes a full-strength rockfall hit (the huge hit that happens if you're actually inside the circle), that's basically a death sentence, not something you can expect to heal through.

Once you have the steady state of the fight more or less down, the next step is making enough progress on Tortos that you can win before something goes wrong.  I've seen kills take as long as eight and a half minutes, but less is better.  As your kicker gets more comfortable with not missing stone breaths, he can start kicking more shells through the bats or through new whirl turtle spawns; either of these helps a lot with getting more DPS time on the boss.
« Last Edit: June 11, 2013, 08:50:52 AM by Marco »