Author Topic: [Prot Paladin] Ongoing gabfest  (Read 7127 times)

Edalia

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Re: [Prot Paladin] Ongoing gabfest
« Reply #45 on: September 14, 2010, 10:15:45 AM »
Also, it looks like the Prot mastery is in fact Block Chance. Block rating is getting removed as a stat, which means paladins won't be blocking ANYTHING until Holy Shield at level 49, and won't be blocking more than 15% until we learn our Mastery skill in the 60's or 70's. That seems really odd to me.

At this point a lot of things are balanced around level 85, which doesn't really jive with their new-player-friendly attitude. the other solution is to just go ret until 49 :).
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Marco

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Re: [Prot Paladin] Ongoing gabfest
« Reply #46 on: September 14, 2010, 10:25:17 AM »
Well, that just means lower-level dungeons need to be balanced around tanks not blocking very many hits.  Being friendly to new players doesn't mean making a level 10 prot paladin plays the same as a level 85 prot paladin.

Edalia

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Re: [Prot Paladin] Ongoing gabfest
« Reply #47 on: September 14, 2010, 10:38:36 AM »
I guess that's true. It feels like there's no difference at level 10 between having a shield and not besides the extra armor, but I suppose that's fine.

I'm also lamenting losing Block Rating as a defensive stat since we've already lost BV and Def, but if Mastery is a defensive stat to balance, that's fine, too.

I did say positive things though! Unfortunately I won't be able to observe the positive effects and threat changes if I'm faceplanting in instances :). Hopefully they tweak the ICC mobs back soon.
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ghoselle

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Re: [Prot Paladin] Ongoing gabfest
« Reply #48 on: September 14, 2010, 10:46:04 AM »
Also, it looks like the Prot mastery is in fact Block Chance. Block rating is getting removed as a stat, which means paladins won't be blocking ANYTHING until Holy Shield at level 49, and won't be blocking more than 15% until we learn our Mastery skill in the 60's or 70's. That seems really odd to me.

At this point a lot of things are balanced around level 85, which doesn't really jive with their new-player-friendly attitude. the other solution is to just go ret until 49 :).

Druids don't get swipe (aka the ability to tank multiple mobs) until level 36 in cataclysm -- as opposed to level 16 on live.  This seems wrong.

Edalia

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Re: [Prot Paladin] Ongoing gabfest
« Reply #49 on: October 05, 2010, 05:53:11 AM »
http://blue.mmo-champion.com/t/27026395866/pally-tanking-in-cata/

geez, gigantic string of GC replies. The part I'm concerned with is this one:

While we still have grave concerns about players being able to fill every GCD, we also don't want to change paladin tanking so much that it is unrecognizable for long-term paladins. Therefore, we are going to try Crusader Strike on a 3 second cooldown for Protection only. Hammer of the Righteous will have the same cooldown. This will allow Protection to fill in almost every gap in the rotation and not be waiting so long on every cooldown, which should help the rotation feel more active. It will also allow Inquisition and Shield of the Righteous to sometimes be up at the same time. That change is pretty significant and will no doubt invite all sorts of theorycrafting on the right way to manage Holy Power. We still have additional grave concerns that once paladins can have both Inquisition and Shield of the Righteous up simultaneously that they will feel underpowered and therefore frustrated whenever they lack sufficient Holy Power for 100% uptime on both. We'll just have to see how that feels.

My knee-jerk reaction is: why? I felt some gaps myself in the little heroic dungeoning I did on the PTR, but it wasn't anything I couldn't handle. I wasn't doing the content "on-level," though, since I savagely overgeared it.

Being GCD-locked is Bad. Having to hit a ton of buttons to fill all those GCDs is also Bad. 969 was Bad. I basically didn't pay any attention to my rotation, and even macroed my 2 6 abilities. I want free GCDs for all the little things I never get to cast while tanking.

Maybe it's a happy medium, but our #1 priority strike on a 3s CD seems like I'd get one free GCD every once in a while, and not necessarily when I want it. CS-Judgement-CS-HW-CS-ShoR-CS-Judgement-[blank or Consecrate]-CS-AS-CS-ShoR...that's 1 in 11 if I skip consecrate.

HoJ off the GCD is nice, though. Shouldn't be TOO bad in PvP with diminishing returns, but I'm not expecting it to stick around for long.
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Deren

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Re: [Prot Paladin] Ongoing gabfest
« Reply #50 on: October 05, 2010, 06:16:55 AM »
Fury warriors got the same treament. I liked 4sec/8sec rotation before now kinda sucks at BT-Filler-BT-Filler-BT-Filler.

I think there idea is if we give them something that  "Every other key you are hitting this key". you only have think of what you going to hit 3 sec from now because you know in the next 1.5 sec you hitting that key.  I dont really think it make for a fun rotation.   I like warriors ShieldS-Rev-Dev-Dev, basic roatiotion then it gets mix up with procs.

Thanamira

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Re: [Prot Paladin] Ongoing gabfest
« Reply #51 on: October 05, 2010, 07:07:48 AM »
Two giant caveats before reading my reply:
* I haven't played on the PTRs
* I never did serious protadin raiding

That said, I'm slightly confused by the comments.  I like having a priority queue AND the option of doing something RIGHT NOW.  Comparing to other classes breaks down really fast, but it's really nice that warriors can, with excess rage and excess GCDs, hit Devastate.  But it's okay if I don't because I'm doing something else, or because I'm too busy taking a bite of a donut, etc.

The nice thing about having -any- option is that if I missed a straggler and I totally suck and my AOE moves are on cooldown, at least I can taunt (off GCD) and deva (on GCD).  So okay, a good tank would've had an AOE move available, but I'm a bad tank, so I have to do the less-than-optimal thing, and that's a good thing: now everyone can differentiate between Deren and Reonna.  But not having a button to hit, as a good thing, made me go "snu?".

I feel like a priority queue is the right thing: Edalia will know which button is the optimal one to hit this GCD, whereas Tuzi won't, and that's a good thing: people will say "woo, Edalia's tanking!" and otherwise say "umm, okay, I can adapt to working with Tuzi".

This is separate from *needing* to hit a button every GCD.  To me, that's a number tuning issue: if (say) 2/3 of your moves isn't enough to establish baseline threat, then that needs to be buffed.  So when Marco gets heroism and pops trinkets, then palatanks need to focus on threat moves, but otherwise, can afford to do other stuff (look around, move, eat a donut...).
Thanamira (110 arcane maga), Reonna (110 prot warrior), Gaillardia (100 eventual resto druid)

Seniummortus

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Re: [Prot Paladin] Ongoing gabfest
« Reply #52 on: October 05, 2010, 07:21:21 AM »
"woo, Edalia's tanking!"

 ??? ??? ??? Never have I said/heard this  ;D.

*somthing constructive to the thread*

Edalia

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Re: [Prot Paladin] Ongoing gabfest
« Reply #53 on: October 05, 2010, 07:31:27 AM »
I wouldn't mind that, but right now the only proc we'd have that mixes things up is AS coming up sooner than every 15s-and it still isn't more important than CS or out HP release, so at best we're casting it instead of Judgement, Holy Wrath, or the blank for a minor threat upgrade. Joy!

3s is too short, and testers felt 4.5s was too long. maybe there just needs to be another thing to hit in the rotation? I agree with thana, a priority queue is correct. We have that on live (for another week or so), but it just happens to fill up our available GCDs. Right now I should hit with Hammer before ShoR and Judge before Consecrate, but the difference is minor.

The other problem with comparing this to live is that we haven't been playing with CC for 2 years. that's why ANR wiped on Halion trash so much-we'd forgotten how to deal with sleeping the generals and haven't really practiced AoE with CC. As it stands, paladins have 4 strikes that won't break CC: CS (3s), AS (15s w/proc potential), ShoR (9s for 3 HP), and Judgement (8s). Even then, we only have 2 free GCDs in 11 with CS on a 3s CD. Essentially, they've replaced my 6 macro of HotR and ShoR alternating with CS every 3s. AAAAAAAND we're back.

Anyway, they're testing it, hopefully we'll see some numbers. I'd be surprised of ShoR with Inquisition up doesn't immediately break, since you're stacking (AP+5% of health) * 130% * 120% / 9s, which is some serious damage dipping. Also, it will start to feel like you HAVE to weave both to be a great tank, which hopefully feels too maintenance-y for them.
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Edalia

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Re: [Prot Paladin] Ongoing gabfest
« Reply #54 on: October 07, 2010, 07:20:33 AM »
Hmm, no mention of the 3s CS CD in the spell changes on mmo-champ, and nothing new in the blue tracker. there's a new PTR build, so I should sign on and test when I get home, but it could be something he was mentioning as being in their internal builds and may never see the light of day.

Let's fucking hope. Maintankadin is split between grognards who love the familiar GCD-locking (and have dubbed it the "x3" rotation) and people who actually determined that our threat problems probably stemmed from something else (for instance, Expertise and Hit are way more important when you have fewer things hitting) and have snarkily dubbed it the "939" rotation.

EDIT: Ugh, 3s CD on CS is in. this is more "dynamic" and "fun" people say. whatever.

Theorycraft run by theckd on Maintankadin show that our proc talent, Grand Crusader, is now less TPS than just hitting CS, Judgement, or Holy Wrath. Now that there are fewer GCDs, there's fewer places to use it.
« Last Edit: October 07, 2010, 07:54:56 AM by Edalia »
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Edalia

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Re: [Prot Paladin] Ongoing gabfest
« Reply #55 on: October 07, 2010, 09:40:35 AM »
Just to clarify my Grand Crusader statement: the proccing Avenger's Shield used to be a huge TPS gain, but since you will be potentially replacing one HW with an AS rather than replacing a blank with an AS, it is now the least efficient threat talent point-for-point-to the extreme that it's simming as less of a gain than the noise.
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